MGM/Mirage Now Hit Soft 17

I'm certain this is old news to many of you and may have already been discussed recently on this board: The MGM Grand and Mirage in Las Vegas no longer stand on soft 17.
I go to Vegas about 4 times a year. I have been playing at the MGM and Mirage for the past 8 years. While a few of their $10 tables were hitting soft 17, many were standing on all 17's - as recently as the end of May (when I was last there) they still followed these rules. I just got back from a 4-day trip to Vegas. I stayed at the Mirage - walked down to the casino floor and saw that all of the felt had been changed on the $10-$15 tables where the dealers now hit a soft 17. The $25 tables still stand on all 17's. A dealer confirmed this had occured in the last few weeks. Same story and confirmation by a dealer at the MGM - except even their $25 tables hit the 17
An interesting note: Walked across the street to the Tropicana and all of their tables are standing on 17 - that is new for them. No late surrender allowed there, though.

MGM is hurting from the poor economy, so what do they do to make more money? They screw the few customers they do have by now hitting a soft 17. Sad!

MGM Grand has had H17 at the low limit tables for a long while. The $25 have been S17. However, in May they moved tables around, and now there are H17 tables where S17 ones used to be. Walk around and check, don't assume like I did that the tables always keep the same rules (thankfully it didn't cost me anything before I realized it). They still have S17 shoe games, despite what the title of this thread implies.

All said, MGM Grand is still a superior place to play the 6D game, much better than the Trop, which has low limit tables that are almost always full with ploppies, making it unsuitable for wonging.

I'll do another walk-through in a few months when we are back. I'd love to see those $10 tables with S17 again. The MGM and the Mirage are the two places we have always stayed at and played at because they usually have several of these table types open (even during peak hours they usually have one or two). We've come to rely on those great shoe games and it really freaked us out as we went from pit to pit (and in the MGM there are alot of them) and weren't able to find any table that was S17. The pit that is behind the European roulette wheel is the one area we did not stop at because those tables are usually $100 minimum and higher. So I can not make the claim that those tables are H17- thats my mistake - those tables may very well be S17. I'd love to know how it is determined when to pull tables from one area to another and change the rules. Who makes these decisions? Are they constantly watching their take at the tables and adjust the rules accordingly?

Grrr. I was planning on playing there in a couple of weeks. I wish I knew of a decent alternative. I'll check it out and report here either way.

tough wonging at the trop

A quick question, i'm new to bj, but if the count was good, then wouldn't hit 17 be good because anything above 4 a dealer busts? i'm confused

No matter what card he gets, it won't bust a soft 17. Hitting soft 17 gives the dealer a free chance to get a better hand.

-Sonny-

Your confusion is legitimate, as many people are confused by whether H17 is good for the player or not. As Sonny pointed out, a dealer will never bust by hitting soft 17. But more fundamentally, having a 17 is just bad.

Player 17 is a BAD hand, not a good hand! If dealer stands on soft 17, only player 17 vs. dealer 6 is a money-maker (and only very slightly!), and even player 17 vs. dealer 5 is a losing hand. If dealer hits soft 17, all player 17's are losers against any dealer upcard!

Dealer 17 is a "pat" hand, but it's actually a really bad hand. Suppose you could use the dark arts to magically give the dealer a 17 every single hand, no matter what the upcard was. If you then played perfectly (hit hard 16 and lower, hit soft 17 and lower, split 8,7,6,3,2,A) you would have a whopping 27% advantage OVER the house! Now, more realistically :laugh:, suppose someone else at your table was using the dark arts to magically give the dealer a 17 every single hand, but you weren't aware of it and continued to play basic strategy as dictated by normal blackjack - you STILL have a 14% advantage over the house!

Once you understand this, it's trivial to realize that dealer hitting soft 17 is bad for the player. When dealer hits soft 17, they have a 21% chance of busting, a 34% chance of ending on 17 again, and a 45% chance of ending with 18-21.

Another way to look at it

If you're still having trouble with Callipygian's explanation, which by the way was thouroughly correct, let me approach the difference from a more basic angle. The s17 rule forces, in essence, the dealer to make a bad play i.e. standing on soft 17. If the dealer were in the player's shoes he would always hit soft 17 because BS states that this is a significantly better way to play this hand., The player always acts upon a soft 17, either hitting or doubling it, depending on the up card. So too should the dealer, but the s17 rule prohibits any further action, thus restricting his ability to improve a poor hand, and so the advantage swings to the player's favor in this situation.

The Mirage still has double deck games (starting at $25) where the dealer stands on soft 17 -- the only such games in town of which I'm aware. On a recent trip, though, it seemed to me that the notch in the discard rack the dealer uses to cut the cards had been moved to reduce pen to about 55%. Last time I was there, several months ago, it seemed like they were giving 60-65%. Has anyone else noticed this, or do I need to have my glasses tightened?

I too recall the Mirage having a 60-65% pen.

If it has been changed to the worse, then its not much better than Sands properties (except cards are face up)

So this is confirmed?

MGM no longer has Stay on 17 now for $10 tables? If so that is a shame.

I don't think the $10 tables have been S17 for a very long time, longer than I have been playing blackjack.

Last time I was there they didn't have any $10 tables, only $15, and they were H17. I think there were $25 (and higher) S17 tables around but I didn't play them.

Mgm

I was out there in April and was playing Stay on all 17's for $10 a hand.

40% better chance over the BS player.

I was there after that, and it was on a weekend. Maybe it changed recently?

Kinda makes it not even worth going out there now since the BJ is just getting so HORRIBLE now.

Well, if you're playing $10/hand, sure, and in that case your expenses will probably dwarf your EV anyhow, so you can't expect to come out ahead overall. The $25 tables were reasonable games.