Negative indices for doubling down?

[evilrobotmonkey]

I wasn't able to find much on the web about this... but are there negative indices for doubling down? For example, when the count is -5, and I have a T against a 9, should I still be doubling?

Some hands I might consider just hitting instead of doubling when count is -4 or lower:

-A4 vs 4,5,6
-A6, A7 vs 2,3
-9 vs 3,4
-T vs 7,8,9
-11 vs T

[21forme]

When the count is -5 you shouldn't be playing.

[newb99]

I've considered a similar question as part of developing my game.

So far my grid has:
TC -1, hit A-4v4 and A-2v5 instead of doubling.
-2, hit 9v3 instead of doubling
-3 hit A-3v5 and 10v9 instead of doubling.

It's still work in progress though, and others' thoughts are welcome. In case anyone asks I don't have a sim programme to create these for me.

At a neg count, I would have the minimum bet out and so to double or not to double would have little significant impact I would think. Having said that 80%+ hands are played at a disadvantageous edge? In practice (and that is practice at home!) I've come to the conclusion that any benefit of being able to double at neg counts is outweighed by the problem of not being able to draw a second card if you get stuck with something horrible (4-5-2??) - far more likely than when the count is a healthy pos.

I've read in Don S's book his view that soft hand doubling opportunities are such that it makes little difference how they're played, and not to double makes a low cost cover play.

Apologies for not answering with a definitive response, but like yourself I couldn't find too much on neg indices and am having to work it up myself.

Newb99
UK

[rukus]

they definitely exist and are more valuable in pitch games than shoe games since you shouldnt be playing below -1 or -2 in a shoe game.

without knowing you count i cant point you anywhere to look but if you use HiLo the indices are in PB. do not guess at the indices you would be surprised how far off you might be..

[evilrobotmonkey]

my question definitely pertains to single or double deck games where i can't wong out.

i count using hi-lo and would like to know whats the best strategy to play through those negative counts.

[rukus]

Originally Posted by evilrobotmonkey

my question definitely pertains to single or double deck games where i can't wong out.

i count using hi-lo and would like to know whats the best strategy to play through those negative counts.

professional blackjack should have the negative indices for hilo.

[Automatic Monkey]

Originally Posted by evilrobotmonkey

my question definitely pertains to single or double deck games where i can't wong out.

i count using hi-lo and would like to know whats the best strategy to play through those negative counts.

The two most interesting indices like that are 9 vs. 3 and 10 vs. 9. The point where you'd rather hit than double isn't that much lower than a neutral count.

There are negative indices for the soft doubles but they're not too useful, because having a lot of low cards left helps you fill your hand. Not much of a slope on those plays.

[Mimosine]

Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey

The two most interesting indices like that are 9 vs. 3 and 10 vs. 9. The point where you'd rather hit than double isn't that much lower than a neutral count.

There are negative indices for the soft doubles but they're not too useful, because having a lot of low cards left helps you fill your hand. Not much of a slope on those plays.

and there are more combinations to get a 9 or 10 than A-X anyway, so the frequency plays an important role in the overall selection of which hands to incorporate into your negative index play. (me thinks!)

[Warlord]

Originally Posted by evilrobotmonkey

my question definitely pertains to single or double deck games where i can't wong out.

i count using hi-lo and would like to know whats the best strategy to play through those negative counts.

imo, if u use hilo then you should have Wongs PB. (period) It has all the indices.

[bj bob]

Originally Posted by evilrobotmonkey

I wasn't able to find much on the web about this... but are there negative indices for doubling down? For example, when the count is -5, and I have a T against a 9, should I still be doubling?

Some hands I might consider just hitting instead of doubling when count is -4 or lower:

-A4 vs 4,5,6
-A6, A7 vs 2,3
-9 vs 3,4
-T vs 7,8,9
-11 vs T

I wouldn't bother doubling A4 v anything or A5 for that matter. It's just too much variance for very little reward. I don't start soft doubling until A-6 or greater, but that's just me.
These indices are extremely sensitive even between SD and DD. Consult the BS engine and you will notice that they vary.
9 v. 3 is about neutral and is a BS play for SD and DD. Any neg. count would throw 9 v. 3 into a simple hit. I would assume that 9 v. 4 would be around +1-2.
T v. 7,8,9 are -3,-2,-1 in my world, but I would check the hi-lo conversions in Norm's work.
11 v. in SD, DD is to be doubled at -1 or higher, but again you need to convert that to hi-lo SD,DD 1 deck res.