Casino Cheating at Blackjack

[ccibball50]

I currently went to a casino and dropped $435 in 7 shoes. I began to suspect that the casino was cheating. I was playing a Double deck game with 75% penetration on average. I played with one other player for all but 2 shoes. I played about 70 hands total. My small bet was 5$ my large bet was $30 (2 of the bets were 50$ because I let emotion get envolved.) The average bet was probably $20 to $25. Each shoes ended with +8 count using the hilo system. What are the chances of that happening? I asked to see the cards, their response was "all the cards are there". I then replied then you should have no problem letting me see the cards. They called someone to see if it were posible for me to see the cards, they denied and shut the table down as soon as I got up. The count was as high as +16 (running count) I do not worry about true count when the runing count is that high in double deck, so I do not know what the highest true count was. I started hitting 16 vs 10 with a +8 count and made a hand most of the time. Was this casino cheating? What is the probability of this happening in a casino?

[actuary]

Wow, they actually shut the table down? I've never seen that before.

As for how likely it is that you lost at a fair game or ending at a TC of +8, I cannot say because you haven't given us enough information. However, I can say that people have lost a lot more than what you did spreading $5-50 at a fair game, and in a shorter amount of time.

[ccibball50]

What more info do I need to give? I will do the best I can. Now, this was not one shoe ending in +8, but it was 7 consecutive shoes ending in between +8 and +16.

My betting strategy was
TC
+1 - $5
+2 - $10
+3 - $15
+4 - $20
+5 - $30

2 of the bets at a + 13 and +11 were $50.(I lost what I had on the table and pulled out a hundred and dropped it in 2 hands.

[Automatic Monkey]

Where did this happen? PM me.

[callipygian]

Originally Posted by ccibball50

I currently went to a casino and dropped $435 ... I played about 70 hands total ... The average bet was probably $20 to $25. ... What is the probability of this happening in a casino?

The chances of you losing 20 more bets than you win out of 70 hands is not unusual at all.

The standard deviation for one hand is about 1.15, and the standard deviation for 70 hands is 1.15*sqrt(70) = 9.6 units. You had a 2.5% chance of being down by 19.2 bets or more just based on sheer probability, that works out to be between -$380 and -$480.

[21forme]

Originally Posted by callipygian

The chances of you losing 20 more bets than you win out of 70 hands is not unusual at all.

The standard deviation for one hand is about 1.15, and the standard deviation for 70 hands is 1.15*sqrt(70) = 9.6 units. You had a 2.5% chance of being down by 19.2 bets or more just based on sheer probability, that works out to be between -$380 and -$480.

While this is true, the fact that the count went very plus time after time suggests some tens or aces were missing.

[ihate17]

Originally Posted by 21forme

While this is true, the fact that the count went very plus time after time suggests some tens or aces were missing.

Those kind of counts would make me suspicious enough to perhaps count down the next several shuffles. I just finished playing about 20 hours of double deck in several places and had two counts in that time that got up that high but in both cases the counts came way down before the shuffle. Had one, with a plus 11 count with slightly less than a deck left but on that hand there were two blackjacks (one was thankfully mine) and a bunch of other high cards taking the count down to plus 3 in one hand.

This game had 75% pen but had it been a 50% pen game the stack would have died at +11. So besides the possibility of cheating, there is the possibility of a high card clump being behind the cut card for several shuffles.
What was the pen on this game?

ihate17

[moo321]

The loss isn't suspicious. Having high counts 6 decks in a row is a little suspicious. Refusing to let you see the cards is more suspicious. Probably nothing, though.

[rollem411]

Originally Posted by ccibball50

I currently went to a casino and dropped $435 in 7 shoes. I began to suspect that the casino was cheating. I was playing a Double deck game with 75% penetration on average. I played with one other player for all but 2 shoes. I played about 70 hands total. My small bet was 5$ my large bet was $30 (2 of the bets were 50$ because I let emotion get envolved.) The average bet was probably $20 to $25. Each shoes ended with +8 count using the hilo system. What are the chances of that happening? I asked to see the cards, their response was "all the cards are there". I then replied then you should have no problem letting me see the cards. They called someone to see if it were posible for me to see the cards, they denied and shut the table down as soon as I got up. The count was as high as +16 (running count) I do not worry about true count when the runing count is that high in double deck, so I do not know what the highest true count was. I started hitting 16 vs 10 with a +8 count and made a hand most of the time. Was this casino cheating? What is the probability of this happening in a casino?

That does seem to me very suspicious. However, these things do happen. Is the casino a "hole in the wall" compared to high end? Also, how long have you been playing at this particular casino?

If it's only a DD game and the count had ended at +16 running count, that means there should be an abundance of 10's OR they removed some of them. However, if they removed 10's and you ended numerous times with such a high + count, you should be able to tell that a deck is short of lets say 5,6, or even 7 high cards. What else they could have done is took out high cards and added in extra low valued cards.

What you can do here is count how many times you see an individual card,(Just bet the min. and play BS) Try it a few times by strictly sticking with the 4 spades and than switch to another card and then another and another. If you are really trying to catch these people, if you spend long enough, you may find that instead of 2, there are 3 of one card and they are caught red handed adding extra low cards to the game. It would be a lot harder in a multideck, but in your case the DD might be worth the effort to try and get a lawsuit if it's possible.

Also, ensure 100% accuracy here or else you will have your plate full if you do end up confronting them and you are wrong.

Good luck

[jack,jackson]

I thought the Casino's had to show you the deck, upon a player's request. Does anyone know the stipulation behind this?
The fact, that, they wouldnt show you the pack, followed by immediately shutting down the table, does sound pretty suspicious.