Playing Continuous Shuffle Machines

[Anonymous2008]

All of the Local Casinos where I live are using Continuous Shuffle Machines. I have avoided playing on them. One table interests me. A $25-$1500.If you play Basic Strategy and use a progression to gamble up on your winnings using say a Dahl Progression can you beat these machines? I know here have seen posts relating to shuffle machines, but I cannot dig them up. Most of the other Tables in the Casino where I play have low caps that are not good for progessions. $10 & $15 tables with $300 limits. How you play and win on these Machines?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by Anonymous2008

If you play Basic Strategy and use a progression to gamble up on your winnings using say a Dahl Progression can you beat these machines?

No, not in the long run. Progression systems do not give you an advantage so it doesn't really matter how they shuffle the cards:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=7109

-Sonny-

[Anonymous2008]

So do you play on Continuous Shuffle Machines or not.If so, how do you beat them? I have started playing Craps more then Blackjack.Have Continuous Shuffle Machines killed the game? What can you do about it. There are few if any Casinos that do not use these Machines.We stop playing or what?

[Sonny]

The CSMs make the game safe from card counters and shuffle trackers. There are sometimes other ways to beat them but it is very rarely worthwhile. Try to avoid playing against them whenever you can. They are evil.

-Sonny-

[zengrifter]

Originally Posted by Sonny

The CSMs make the game safe from card counters and shuffle trackers.

Card counter should be able to beat them - the count STILL rises and falls... right? zg

[davidpom]

I'm not a fan of CSM's these days, based upon hours of personal play against them. Sadly nearly all land based casinos have these now, and they've really changed the game of traditional blackjack as we know it. The game plays faster with no human shuffling, and the 4-deck shoe might as well be perpetual... all of those small cards in there, all of the time. I once saw the dealer get an 8 card 21. i've NEVER seen that on a shoe dealt game, and I've played for over 10 years. To me, it does seem that the house is "luckier" on CSM's than on standard table shoes... perhaps that's just been my experience.

You mention articles about CSM's. I wrote one some time ago that you can access here. It might be of use.

Re ZenGrifters comments on counting: the only way I've found any "count" to be helpful is when playing multiple boxes (ie whole table) against the dealer. In doing this, you might get say 20 cards shown with a 7-box against the dealer situation. As there are already 15-20 cards in the "drop" box at the front of the shoe when these cards go in the back, you know that these cards just played cannot be at the front. On that basis you could perform a mini "true count" using the 15-20 cards you've seen... but from experience, that's a small number against the 208 cards total in the machine on which to get a genuine "edge".

[ccl]

the house does seem luckier with the machines, i regularly beat them at one place in MS but its nothing but playing BS and pure luck. In calif. i played several times over the course of maybe 8-9 hours, pushed every blackjack i had and the dealers always seemed to end up with hitting stiff hands to 21 almost every hand, or at least beat the table buy one

[ihate17]

Originally Posted by davidpom

I'm not a fan of CSM's these days, based upon hours of personal play against them. Sadly nearly all land based casinos have these now, and they've really changed the game of traditional blackjack as we know it.

Perhaps I have played blackjack in 35 different casinos this year and over 50 during the past few years and have never put a nickel down on the felt of a table with a CSM. Sure many casinos have these machines but they are only on the lowest of low minimum tables. That is unless you are playing ouytside the U.S.

ihate17

[newb99]

Originally Posted by davidpom

Re ZenGrifters comments on counting: the only way I've found any "count" to be helpful is when playing multiple boxes (ie whole table) against the dealer. In doing this, you might get say 20 cards shown with a 7-box against the dealer situation. As there are already 15-20 cards in the "drop" box at the front of the shoe when these cards go in the back, you know that these cards just played cannot be at the front. On that basis you could perform a mini "true count" using the 15-20 cards you've seen... but from experience, that's a small number against the 208 cards total in the machine on which to get a genuine "edge".

I've made several postings on the subject of CSMs - I reckon as well as removing the advantage that comes with counting down a whole shoe, they also dilute away the extremes of edge (both for and against the player) via the continual shuffling process - ie you won't get the benefit of a whole shoe where a significant number of small cards are behind the cutoff, and where overall for that shoe the odds will favour the player.

As to the advantage that can be gained, having had a moment of weakness and played against one, I reckon that two rounds of cards are unlikely to reappear at anytime - the round just played and the one before that where it's unlikely that any of those cards will appear in the next round to be dealt. With a full table of 7 players an advantage will present itself occasionally, but will only be good for a single round, or two at most, and then it'll be gone.

I was discussing CSMs in a casino once, and came out with a convincing arguement that the continuing shuffle process doubled the HE and that combined with players making mistakes or deviating from BS just one time in 50 hands it produced a game that was up there with three card poker, let 'em ride etc. You could see ears of people playing starting to twitch.

In summary, to be avoided.

[newb99]

Originally Posted by ihate17

Perhaps I have played blackjack in 35 different casinos this year and over 50 during the past few years and have never put a nickel down on the felt of a table with a CSM. Sure many casinos have these machines but they are only on the lowest of low minimum tables. That is unless you are playing ouytside the U.S.

ihate17

In Greece, I've been told it's a requirement of the State gaming licence that card games are dealt from a CSM. So there's not a single place in the whole country where you can find a traditional shoe dealt game.

On the UK Gambling Commission's website (in the public documents area) there is a submission from Shufflemaster Inc on why the UK should move over to mandatory CSMs for BJ and other card dealt games. I think it was made in 2005. Lots of nonsense in it around how they benefit the player by eradicating the risks of dealer collusion and the negative impact of APs. Thankfully, the GC have not made it mandatory and left it up to individual operators as to whether they wish to use CSMs or not (more than likely on the grounds that it would be unfair to insist on their use as there is no competition in the market to provide them). Somebody in Greece obviously took a different view - and no doubt a few personal interests somewhere were enhanced along the way.

I think the only way the march of the CSMs is going to be halted is if Shufflemaster Inc bite the dust - possible in the current environment, although all of that regular monthly leasing cashflow would be attractive to someone to take them over if they go down. What is really needed is some sort of gadget that emits a single electro-magnetic pulse that can f--ck up the chip inside and render it unusable. All James Bond stuff but it'd be fun to watch every one in a casino seize up. Shufflemaster Inc would then have to start building them out of lead, or make them EMP proof and the resultant cost increase that was passed onto the customer would leave them uneconomical to lease. Propeller heads please apply!