spanish 21

some people say it's an awful game, some people say it's good for card counters. do you have any experiences/charts/advice about spanish 21?

It can be a very good game if you can find good rules. There have been a lot of posts recently about Spanish 21 on various forums. Here are a few to get you started:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=9171
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=11112
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=12662

You can also use the Search function on this website to find more.

-Sonny-

Katrina Walker has written the definitive text on the subject. The book contains almost everything you need including freq charts which are a great touch. The only thing she has left out is an exposed card strategy and the early surrender strategy that she had promised to post on her website.
BW

ok, thanks, that was helpful. i guess i just have to buy the book. it seems to be a good game, i wonder why arnold snyder seems to hate it so much? anyway, do you think i can get away with a large bet spread if i play the game....? i heard somewhere that the dealers don't think card counters play SP21?

Not sure why you think Arnold Snyder "hates" it. I would theorize that there is less heat playing Spanish 21 so yes a larger bet spread is plausable, all other factors being equal. Of course some pits are more knowledgeable than others and no matter what your game is if you win too much you will eventually get noticed.
BW

well, in Blackbelt in blackjack arnold snyder writes:"in some games, ten value cards have been removed from the shoe, another sucker game to avoid. this awful game is usually called spanish 21. it was apparently invented during the spanish inquisition as a form of torture!"
its not the first time i hear that the game should not be played. could it be that it's a sucker game unless you have read katarina walkers book and adjusted your BS and your count? when card counters give advice i guess they arn't only talking to other counters but to a broader audience as well....anyway i think i'll buy the book and try it

The old timers usually take a dim view of new games. There are certain people who are just waiting for Vegas rules single deck, dealt down to the last card to be dealt on the Strip again with top shelf liquor and cigarette girls and they are going to be waiting along time. SP21 and lots of other BJ derivatives are beatable, read Kat's book, then get the QFIT software and do your own simulations before putting up your money.

Clif's notes spoonfeed please:

Is Spanish 21 more/less/equally dependent on good penetration as regular BJ when playing against a shoe?

Snyder may also think that Sp21 is unbeatable because he tried Red 7 on it and it failed horribly. My one and only gripe about Snyder is the extent to which he pushes Red 7, he has a huge hardon for it. And for Sp21, Red 7 ends up having a pivot of +6, which is pretty much useless, so if he ran sims with Red 7 without realizing how imbalanced it was, he'd get a result where you'd have to wait until an extraordinarily high count and then bet heavily to beat the game.

In Snyder’s defense, that book was written quite a while ago. His more recent Big Book of Blackjack discusses card counting in Spanish 21.

-Sonny-

Her web site is down and she seems to have disappeared from the scene for many months now. I know she was pregnant when the book came out. Perhaps the little one is keeping her busy these days.

Yes.

Well, the effect of removal is bigger than in regular blackjack. I believe one point of Hi-lo is worth approximately .5% if blackjack, but .65 or so in Spanish. The fact that the experts missed all of this is probably what led them to conclude that Spanish 21 was worthless.

Also, the playing variations are more frequent and more powerful. In blackjack, many of the common play variations are just standing on 16's against high cards. These are not very powerful.

In spanish, you have the opportunity to stand on a 12-14 against a 2-6. You have more soft doubles to incorporate (most of the soft doubles in blackjack are basic strategy) as well.

All in all, it's looking like it may be a better game for counters.

I'm just curious about penetration because most of the local shops that offer Sp21 have mediocre pen on the shoes. But they also have mediocre pen on the blackjack games.

The joint i play at:7/8 dealt,S17 and all the good rules except DDD.:grin:
Dealers too lazy to shuffle:laugh:

P.D.

Well. I don't really know, but it seems to me alot of the benefit of SP21 is being able to spread more without (assumed) risk of heat at the same pen level as BJ.