Stats on the asm's?

[blackchipjim]

I have been recently playing auto shuffled machine shoes and wonder if anyone has done any conclusive studies on them. I know they have no real effect other eliminating the bias that may occur in hand shuffled shoes. I have started to keep some stats on the overall counts that occur from shoe to shoe. My question is that has anyone else bothered to keep stats on the shoes that the machines shuffle. I know it makes no difference on the player's ability to make money but is there a chink in the armor? I would think a sim of billions of hand would show a flaw or a exploitable avenue to pursue. blackchipjim

[zengrifter]

Originally Posted by blackchipjim

I have been recently playing auto shuffled machine shoes and wonder if anyone has done any conclusive studies on them. I know they have no real effect other eliminating the bias that may occur in hand shuffled shoes. I have started to keep some stats on the overall counts that occur from shoe to shoe. My question is that has anyone else bothered to keep stats on the shoes that the machines shuffle. I know it makes no difference on the player's ability to make money but is there a chink in the armor? I would think a sim of billions of hand would show a flaw or a exploitable avenue to pursue. blackchipjim

Nada, unless you can see the shuffle pattern inside. zg

[blackchipjim]

I understand your point ZG but that is made by a specific algorythm that I have run into alot of dead ends trying to gain assistiance with. I was thinking of more of base attack on the shoes by sheer numbers. By tracking the shoes curve in tc would it be possible to predict it's rise and fall or neutral curve with somewhat accuracy. This is way beyond my math skills but I think a good mathemation could reverse engineer the math to fit the machine. I was kinda hoping Qfit could or would answer this question from a computer beating computer sim standpoint. Thanks anyway Zg your ops are always valueable to me in my indeavors. blackchipjim

[sagefr0g]

Originally Posted by blackchipjim

I understand your point ZG but that is made by a specific algorythm that I have run into alot of dead ends trying to gain assistiance with. I was thinking of more of base attack on the shoes by sheer numbers. By tracking the shoes curve in tc would it be possible to predict it's rise and fall or neutral curve with somewhat accuracy. This is way beyond my math skills but I think a good mathemation could reverse engineer the math to fit the machine. I was kinda hoping Qfit could or would answer this question from a computer beating computer sim standpoint. Thanks anyway Zg your ops are always valueable to me in my indeavors. blackchipjim

i've wondered the same thing. like if the machine shuffles the same mechanical way every time then you'd expect say a pack that was biased one way when it went in the machine to come out some expected way. so that if another similarly biased pack was put in the ASM you'd expect that pack to come out in a similar manner.
thing is as far as i know it's not known if the ASM has some algorithm that changes up the way it shuffles. that would throw a monkey wrench in the idea.

[Canceler]

Originally Posted by sagefr0g

thing is as far as i know it's not known if the ASM has some algorithm that changes up the way it shuffles.

That could definitely be possible. One time, after several bad shoes in a row, the dealer flicked a switch, or did something, to the ASM. She claimed she had changed the way it shuffles. If she could do it manually, there’s no reason it couldn’t be done automatically.

[EasyRhino]

She might have been just making it up, and cycled the power.

Actually, at the shops I played at, if a dealer did ANYTHING to an ASM, they'd probably get in trouble from the pit.

[blackchipjim]

I guess my what I'm trying to achieve while not impossible is at best impractical. I would need either a machine or thousands of results from the machine. I was thinking of starting a asm tracking club which is not that far fetched. Here's what I proposed since it is quite simple. Everyone in the study would track their shoes as they were dealt. You don't have to be playing just counting and tracking results from the asm. I'm not a stat person but still think it's possible to tell if the shoe will rise in count or stay at it's present count. I have a few interesting theories about the machines I just need a few other people who would take mental notes when they play against the machines. blackchipjim

[bjcount]

Originally Posted by blackchipjim

I guess my what I'm trying to achieve while not impossible is at best impractical. I would need either a machine or thousands of results from the machine. I was thinking of starting a asm tracking club which is not that far fetched. Here's what I proposed since it is quite simple. Everyone in the study would track their shoes as they were dealt. You don't have to be playing just counting and tracking results from the asm. I'm not a stat person but still think it's possible to tell if the shoe will rise in count or stay at it's present count. I have a few interesting theories about the machines I just need a few other people who would take mental notes when they play against the machines. blackchipjim

I believe that keeping a record of the count will not give you the results you are looking for. We need to get our hands on the machine, feed 8 decks of new unshuffled cards into it 100's of times and then map out the order of the cards after each completed shuffle to see if there is any consistancy in the order of the cards after each completed shuffle.

I would say that someone has already tried it but would be a fool to make the results public info if it produced positive results .

BJC

[blackchipjim]

I agree that results would be a breach of IT and should not be common knowledge.

[bjcount]

Originally Posted by blackchipjim

I agree that results would be a breach of IT and should not be common knowledge.

It's only a breach of IT or a Patented Idea if you produce a machine with the same technology. To reverse engineer the process for personal use to better understand how the equipment works would be the same as holecarding. It's just how you exploit the information retrieved. If you sell the info from your reverse engineering of the others Patented product, then your infringing.

Many Patented ideas are just improvements on others' Patents. For example if you could prove that the ASM always shuffles in a predetermined order and then you came out with an idea that forces the equipment to modify the order of the cards so this never happens again, you used someone else's Idea and improved on it.
Spend 10G for a Patent Attorney to write it up, file it, get it approved by USPTO, and then go to shuffle master and show them their short comings. You a millionaire over night.

Well it's not quite that simple but you get the gist of it. I am not a lawyer but we had gone through a similar circumstance about 10 years ago.

BJC