AC seems to have picked up some.
- Thread starter kewljason
- Start date
It seems to be a common misconception that the general public even understands rule changes, much less understands their importance. Promotions might work (2:1 blackjack coupons, etc.), incentives might work (discounted rooms, etc.), but advertising that you're now S17 instead of H17 doesn't.
I actually got into a quasi-argument with one of my friends who really thought that all pat hands were the same, that the dealer gains nothing by hitting soft 17 and drawing 4, since his hand is "pat anyway" and that hitting soft 17 gives the dealer a "second chance to bust".
I actually got into a quasi-argument with one of my friends who really thought that all pat hands were the same, that the dealer gains nothing by hitting soft 17 and drawing 4, since his hand is "pat anyway" and that hitting soft 17 gives the dealer a "second chance to bust".
I was referring to everything, not just the blackjack tables. The casino seemed more crowded, slot areas as well. The buffet was fully open and was half hour wait. Was even a line at the hotel checkin. Even the train seemed more crowded. I wasn't really there over presidents day weekend, I was still in vegas, but I hadn't thought about possible spring break as someone suggusted. still seems a stretch. I wasn't suggesting that it was as crowded as several years ago, before Pa and NY slots. just more crowded than I've seen in several months. Was just an observation.
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I have noticed a lot of very cheap flight/hotel packages to gaming cities lately. Maybe people still want to vacation but are going cheap.
Notice driving by a BK or MCD's around lunch time and the lines will be long or at Costco or other warehouse grocery stores the lines are still nuts. They seem busier than ever even.
On the other hand drive by an outback or claim jumper and they will be dead.. Go to a specialty grocery store and it is dead as well. The pizza industry is losing profits as well while Mcdonalds profits rose 80% last year.
Notice driving by a BK or MCD's around lunch time and the lines will be long or at Costco or other warehouse grocery stores the lines are still nuts. They seem busier than ever even.
On the other hand drive by an outback or claim jumper and they will be dead.. Go to a specialty grocery store and it is dead as well. The pizza industry is losing profits as well while Mcdonalds profits rose 80% last year.
Differences
I know very little about slot machines. Now I know MORE though because upon seeing Flash's statement concerning "video lottery terminals posing as slot machines" I was wondering, "What the heck is the difference?" I pulled up all the information I could on the difference between a video lottery terminal and a slot machine. The results were astounding!
As it turns out there IS a difference and the payouts of a "video lottery terminal" are poor compared to your typical Vegas slot machine with all of these video lottery terminals connected to a single central processing unit and random number generation system that gives a pay out comparable to one of those scratch off tickets that have an ice cubes chance in hell of winning.
Are these the sorts of machines in PA that are taking all the slot players away from Atlantic City???? Some Video lottery terminal with a 74% payout as opposed to an Atlantic City slot machine with a 97-98% payout? If this is the case, it's only a matter of time before slot business will fall back toward Atlantic City, unless people are truly THAT STUPID.
Wait a minute here... I am in Atlantic City just about everyday and in looking around at the vast majority of people and what they do, what they play, what they are willing to gamble at I notice that people are THAT STUPID, making the people that play a video lottery terminal instead of a regular slot machine... MORE STUPID!
I've also noticed that I perceive little or no difference in how busy the casinos are as opposed to a year ago, two years ago. I am primarily around the tables though and not slot machines. The restaurants and things also appear to be just as busy as ever. Could this mean that people are still going to the casinos but not gambling as much and doing more in the way of the various amenities such as restaurants?
The slot machines in Atlantic City and Vegas are a huge part of their revenue as Flash said. I never really thought about that much until he mentioned about this and being relatively oblivious to this fact I have been looking around thinking that the casinos appear to be as crowded as ever. Perhaps the tables are just as crowded and just as many people are stumbling about the place but less money is being pumped into those slot machines in addition to those that have elected to pump their cash into a video lottery terminal in Pennsylvania with considerably more in the way of negative expectation, not realizing anything is amiss!
If this is the case, it seems to me that's it's only a matter of time (and lost money) before people realize that the payouts of a PA "video lottery terminal" are far worse than your typical Atlantic City slot machine... UNLESS... people are truly THAT STUPID.
I know very little about slot machines. Now I know MORE though because upon seeing Flash's statement concerning "video lottery terminals posing as slot machines" I was wondering, "What the heck is the difference?" I pulled up all the information I could on the difference between a video lottery terminal and a slot machine. The results were astounding!
As it turns out there IS a difference and the payouts of a "video lottery terminal" are poor compared to your typical Vegas slot machine with all of these video lottery terminals connected to a single central processing unit and random number generation system that gives a pay out comparable to one of those scratch off tickets that have an ice cubes chance in hell of winning.
Are these the sorts of machines in PA that are taking all the slot players away from Atlantic City???? Some Video lottery terminal with a 74% payout as opposed to an Atlantic City slot machine with a 97-98% payout? If this is the case, it's only a matter of time before slot business will fall back toward Atlantic City, unless people are truly THAT STUPID.
Wait a minute here... I am in Atlantic City just about everyday and in looking around at the vast majority of people and what they do, what they play, what they are willing to gamble at I notice that people are THAT STUPID, making the people that play a video lottery terminal instead of a regular slot machine... MORE STUPID!
I've also noticed that I perceive little or no difference in how busy the casinos are as opposed to a year ago, two years ago. I am primarily around the tables though and not slot machines. The restaurants and things also appear to be just as busy as ever. Could this mean that people are still going to the casinos but not gambling as much and doing more in the way of the various amenities such as restaurants?
The slot machines in Atlantic City and Vegas are a huge part of their revenue as Flash said. I never really thought about that much until he mentioned about this and being relatively oblivious to this fact I have been looking around thinking that the casinos appear to be as crowded as ever. Perhaps the tables are just as crowded and just as many people are stumbling about the place but less money is being pumped into those slot machines in addition to those that have elected to pump their cash into a video lottery terminal in Pennsylvania with considerably more in the way of negative expectation, not realizing anything is amiss!
If this is the case, it seems to me that's it's only a matter of time (and lost money) before people realize that the payouts of a PA "video lottery terminal" are far worse than your typical Atlantic City slot machine... UNLESS... people are truly THAT STUPID.
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There are few, if any slot machines in AC that payout 97% or more If they exist, they are at the $25 level or above. Borgata had such a machine, but it was $1,000 a pop. Most nickel video slots payout in the 85-90% rate.
Where did you get the 74% payout rate for PA VLMs. I have not seen any figures.? Hopefully not from the Wiki page that claimed Vegas slot machines returned 98%.
For the average slot player, there is no difference between an AC slot machine or a VLM. For the skilled video poker player, there is a huge difference.
Edited to include-As of Dec, 2008, PA racinos are reporting 89% payouts, not far off the AC average.
Where did you get the 74% payout rate for PA VLMs. I have not seen any figures.? Hopefully not from the Wiki page that claimed Vegas slot machines returned 98%.
For the average slot player, there is no difference between an AC slot machine or a VLM. For the skilled video poker player, there is a huge difference.
Edited to include-As of Dec, 2008, PA racinos are reporting 89% payouts, not far off the AC average.
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Casino Player magazine reports PA slot payouts. I don't recall the exact numbers, but they are maybe 5% below AC slots.
I've been to Phila Park casino twice (a promo offer, of course.) The first time was before the current financial mess and EVERY slot machine was occupied! I was there, again, about a month ago, and it was still probably 75%. I don't ever think I've seen anywhere close to even 50% of the slots in use in any AC casino, even during peak season.
Phila Park is about 5 minutes off I-95 and Rte 1, in a densely populated suburb of Phila, and only 5-10 minutes from Northeast Phila (also densely populated.) Why drive 1+ hours, pay $5 for AC casino parking, and pay ~$10 in tolls for a few %age points difference in payouts, when you can drive a few minutes and park for free? Maybe some of these people are smarter than the AC casino execs who continue to remove table games and add more slots.
I've been to Phila Park casino twice (a promo offer, of course.) The first time was before the current financial mess and EVERY slot machine was occupied! I was there, again, about a month ago, and it was still probably 75%. I don't ever think I've seen anywhere close to even 50% of the slots in use in any AC casino, even during peak season.
Phila Park is about 5 minutes off I-95 and Rte 1, in a densely populated suburb of Phila, and only 5-10 minutes from Northeast Phila (also densely populated.) Why drive 1+ hours, pay $5 for AC casino parking, and pay ~$10 in tolls for a few %age points difference in payouts, when you can drive a few minutes and park for free? Maybe some of these people are smarter than the AC casino execs who continue to remove table games and add more slots.
The tighter the pursestrings, the more people are motivated to eat "fast food"
During this economic meltdown that we are in the midst of, have you bothered to see what the effect has been on the stock of companies that deal "cut-rate"
If all of your money was invested in Walmart, you'd be smiling while others are upset about losing 1/2 of their net worth. Check out the stock history of that "dollar store" corporation. Sorry, but I cannot recall the name, no less ticker symbol.
During this economic meltdown that we are in the midst of, have you bothered to see what the effect has been on the stock of companies that deal "cut-rate"
If all of your money was invested in Walmart, you'd be smiling while others are upset about losing 1/2 of their net worth. Check out the stock history of that "dollar store" corporation. Sorry, but I cannot recall the name, no less ticker symbol.
Point of reference
The point of reference I ran into was Canadian "video lottery terminals" which pay out 74% and found no specifics on payouts of PA. I don't know what the exact payout is for PA "video lottery terminals" and only know that the payouts on these devices on the whole is considerably less than a standard slot machine according to the information I ran across.
The point of reference I ran into was Canadian "video lottery terminals" which pay out 74% and found no specifics on payouts of PA. I don't know what the exact payout is for PA "video lottery terminals" and only know that the payouts on these devices on the whole is considerably less than a standard slot machine according to the information I ran across.
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VLT payouts in NY
In NY, the VLTs pay about 92%. The big ripoff is that the video poker games (some sporting 9/6 pay tables for Jacks or Better) pay the same 92% regardless of how they are played, and no one is told that they are not real video poker machines. Here's the scoop: http://www.albanylaw.edu/media/user/glc/vlt_video_poker.pdf
For regular slot players, I'm not sure the 92% represents a bad deal, when travel time and other factors are taken into account. For video poker players, having your money disappear 16 times faster than it would on a properly-played "real" full-pay machine represents a terrible deal by any standard.
In NY, the VLTs pay about 92%. The big ripoff is that the video poker games (some sporting 9/6 pay tables for Jacks or Better) pay the same 92% regardless of how they are played, and no one is told that they are not real video poker machines. Here's the scoop: http://www.albanylaw.edu/media/user/glc/vlt_video_poker.pdf
For regular slot players, I'm not sure the 92% represents a bad deal, when travel time and other factors are taken into account. For video poker players, having your money disappear 16 times faster than it would on a properly-played "real" full-pay machine represents a terrible deal by any standard.
It is a severely horrible deal - 92% return.
Real Video Poker, depending on the pay table, etc. is typically between 97.5% and 99.5%
I am the person responsible for getting the info' about the FAKE Video Poker to the
Albany Times Union, when they used it for a Front Page Sunday spread.
The public looks up Video Poker on the net and follow the advice by experts
to create an almost even game. They are being "suckered" big time.
callipygian said:
I actually got into a quasi-argument with one of my friends who really thought that all pat hands were the same, that the dealer gains nothing by hitting soft 17 and drawing 4, since his hand is "pat anyway" and that hitting soft 17 gives the dealer a "second chance to bust".
It's not Video Poker. It's a video lottery machine. 92% is a heck of a lot better than the games people play in their local taverns. Broadway Poker, which is the only other video/slot machine that is readily available in NY has a top payout of 85%. Most bars keep the payouts at 75% or less. Unlike slot machines, Broadway poker machines can be reset at will. You can set it at 80% all week, but on Friday, when the Rubes come in flush with cash,flip a switch and its 55%.
The other thing with the VLMs is that an uneducated player with actually have a better chance on these than on the much more complicated Bonus poker games. I'm been learning Double Double Bonus and even after a month I'm still making many mistakes. A newbie would get killed playing this in a casino. Play a fake VP machine at Yonkers and you can't make a mistake. The machine corrects them for you.
The other thing with the VLMs is that an uneducated player with actually have a better chance on these than on the much more complicated Bonus poker games. I'm been learning Double Double Bonus and even after a month I'm still making many mistakes. A newbie would get killed playing this in a casino. Play a fake VP machine at Yonkers and you can't make a mistake. The machine corrects them for you.
Exactly. The game is mistake proof.
My last trip out west, I'm playing 100 play Jacks or Better, the guy next to me is playing Double Double Bonus. He is frequently drawing two pair- a hi pair and a lo pair and keeping them. In this game two pair pays the same as a hi pair so you break them up and go for the 4OAK bonus. At $25 a pop, I figure he was blowing about $5 every time this hand came up.
Many, many newbies will bust a pair of Jacks to chase a flush, even a straight. These VLMs fix all those dumb moves.
My last trip out west, I'm playing 100 play Jacks or Better, the guy next to me is playing Double Double Bonus. He is frequently drawing two pair- a hi pair and a lo pair and keeping them. In this game two pair pays the same as a hi pair so you break them up and go for the 4OAK bonus. At $25 a pop, I figure he was blowing about $5 every time this hand came up.
Many, many newbies will bust a pair of Jacks to chase a flush, even a straight. These VLMs fix all those dumb moves.