Blue Heron Casino, Port Perry, Ontario

[DonR]

Have any of you visited this casino? I've played there a few times and the results have been very bad, much worse than in any other casino I've played.

The table limits are $100, minimum bets vary from $10 to $25. Rules are pretty standard for any Ontario based casino: S17, DOA, DAS, pen varies, but I've seen some very good ones (87.5%). All tables are 8D, except one 6D table ($25-$100).

My experience here is that I have consistently seen some very good TC's, and have been consistently killed on those. Not even close to any other place. So many times I've seen TC go to +5, +6, or higher, pushing out my max bets, and getting killed, time after time.

I'm really starting to suspect some foul play here. Do you think that they may be pulling 10's out of those decks on a few tables, here and there?

When I look into the spreadsheet where I track my scores in all casinos I go to, this one is the worst, by far. Just a coincidence, or maybe something else?

I most likely will not go back to that place, but just wanted to hear your opinion. Am I seeing things here that do not exist, or have any of you experienced something similar?

[FLASH1296]

While being cheated is possible, it is highly doubtful.
The questions that your statements prompt are these:

1. How large a sample of sessions (of what length) do you have ?

If you are speaking of having recorded results of a few dozen sessions
(for a total of a few hundred hours), than in all likelihood,
your results lack a compelling degree of statistical significance.

2. Does the casino publicly "spread" the cards whenever new cards are put into play ?

This takes place, traditionally, once per day, in the early morning.
I would not play in a casino that did not perform this public inspection.

[DonR]

Originally Posted by FLASH1296

While being cheated is possible, it is highly doubtful.
The questions that your statements prompt are these:

1. How large a sample of sessions (of what length) do you have ?

If you are speaking of having recorded results of a few dozen sessions
(for a total of a few hundred hours), than in all likelihood,
your results lack a compelling degree of statistical significance.

2. Does the casino publicly "spread" the cards whenever new cards are put into play ?

This takes place, traditionally, once per day, in the early morning.
I would not play in a casino that did not perform this public inspection.

1. The sample is rather small, definitely less than a few hundred hours, more like 40-50. I agree with you, with regards to statistical significance. It is just that when I look at my spreadsheet, this casino's results look much worse than anything else. Probably, just bad luck...or some voodoo, maybe.

2. Frankly, I don't know. I have never witnessed it in this casino. I have seen it in other casinos, but I've never been in this one that early.

[moo321]

Originally Posted by DonR

Have any of you visited this casino? I've played there a few times and the results have been very bad, much worse than in any other casino I've played.

The table limits are $100, minimum bets vary from $10 to $25. Rules are pretty standard for any Ontario based casino: S17, DOA, DAS, pen varies, but I've seen some very good ones (87.5%). All tables are 8D, except one 6D table ($25-$100).

My experience here is that I have consistently seen some very good TC's, and have been consistently killed on those. Not even close to any other place. So many times I've seen TC go to +5, +6, or higher, pushing out my max bets, and getting killed, time after time.

I'm really starting to suspect some foul play here. Do you think that they may be pulling 10's out of those decks on a few tables, here and there?

When I look into the spreadsheet where I track my scores in all casinos I go to, this one is the worst, by far. Just a coincidence, or maybe something else?

I most likely will not go back to that place, but just wanted to hear your opinion. Am I seeing things here that do not exist, or have any of you experienced something similar?

Bad results are not a good reason to suspect cheating. You need something suspicious to have happened.

1. Was the count ALWAYS high at the end of the shoe? If so, they may have shorted the shoe.
2. Were you watching the dealer's eyes? If their eyes went to the shoe frequently when they weren't dealing a card, they may have had a peeking device.
3. Did you watch your payouts?
4. How did they shuffle? Was it possible for them to introduce a stacked deck, at least for the first hand?

[DonR]

Originally Posted by moo321

1. Was the count ALWAYS high at the end of the shoe? If so, they may have shorted the shoe.

I don't think it was always high, but for the majority of shoes it was. That's what killed me.

Originally Posted by moo321

2. Were you watching the dealer's eyes? If their eyes went to the shoe frequently when they weren't dealing a card, they may have had a peeking device.

What kind of a peeking device? Never heard of that. Please PM me, if you don't want to elaborate this in public.

Originally Posted by moo321

3. Did you watch your payouts?

That wasn't the problem, I'm pretty sure.

Originally Posted by moo321

4. How did they shuffle? Was it possible for them to introduce a stacked deck, at least for the first hand?

They hand shuffle at this place, with the exception of CSM's, which I never play, anyway. How can they stack a deck? Again, if you prefer, please PM me.

[Martin Gayle]

Originally Posted by DonR

Have any of you visited this casino? I've played there a few times and the results have been very bad, much worse than in any other casino I've played.

The table limits are $100, minimum bets vary from $10 to $25. Rules are pretty standard for any Ontario based casino: S17, DOA, DAS, pen varies, but I've seen some very good ones (87.5%). All tables are 8D, except one 6D table ($25-$100).

My experience here is that I have consistently seen some very good TC's, and have been consistently killed on those. Not even close to any other place. So many times I've seen TC go to +5, +6, or higher, pushing out my max bets, and getting killed, time after time.

I'm really starting to suspect some foul play here. Do you think that they may be pulling 10's out of those decks on a few tables, here and there?

When I look into the spreadsheet where I track my scores in all casinos I go to, this one is the worst, by far. Just a coincidence, or maybe something else?

I most likely will not go back to that place, but just wanted to hear your opinion. Am I seeing things here that do not exist, or have any of you experienced something similar?

I doubt you are not being cheated. You just had some sour results. Ontario casinos are protected by bad games which are difficult to beat and variance is a mistress we all avoid. The OLG scams over the last few years would have cracked down on any house cheating that would have been going on which I doubt there was. All Canadian casinos spread the cards out for public inspection at card change as Flash mentioned. Watch for this and "publically insect" that all the cards are in the deck. If they do not spread the cards for public inspection or if some cards are missing they are not following procedure and you should immediately notify the OLG and the AGLC and tell them the time/table number/dealer/floorman involved.

[frankied53]

I play at Great Blue Heron weekly and it's above board. I have been there many times when they put new cards into play , and they fan all 6 or 8 decks out in plain view for all to see. Of course I have had sessions also there where I wondered whether things were 'normal'...like losing $2K or more in a session, losing all the big bets at high counts. It's just 'normal' variance/fluctuation that we have to deal with and have the stomach and bankroll to get through. It's all about results in the long run... and it might take hundreds of hours of play to get there....

FrankD

[FLASH1296]

Frank,

If you think that you can so much as catch a shadowy glimpse
of the "Long Run" on a distant horizon - after hundreds
of hours you are sadly mistaken.

You may get a bare inkling of the long run after playing many thousands of hours.

Until then, just keep on truckin'

[frankied53]

My point was the same as yours. I know very well how this works. I have been playing about 500 hours per year, for 5 years. Even over an entire year of play, one cannot make any conclusions about any specific casino, or even be guaranteed a positive result. I will tell you that over 5 years I have done quite well though.
The probability of me giving back all my winnings is *extremely* small at this stage, so I consider myself well into the long run.... but I won't talk details here in public
FrankD

[actuary]

I played at this casino once, back when I was living in Toronto, maybe about 4 years ago. From my first hand on their 6D table, I lost 14 hands in a row. Not pushes, I'm talking pure losses. And I was wonging, playing positive counts only.

I might have gone on to lose more hands in a row, but after the 14th hand they kicked me out of the casino.

I will never go back to that dump!