Card counting or Poker?

#1
Blackjack card counting?

or

Poker strategy and skills?

Which one makes you more money?

Is it really worth it to learn how to count cards, learn the systems and get good enough where you can make something, anything?

Whats the most anybody has made in one day with blackjack?

I mean, you never hear of famous pro blackjack players. Whereas with poker I know several from the top of my head, all of who made millions playing poker.

A friend tells me the other day that he knows a guy at our school who makes $10,000 a month just by playing poker online. It gets you thinking, "maybe I'm betting at the wrong game here."

lets see. the 10,000 he made with online poker? or the 600 I made with blackjack?

can you make 10 grand a month counting cards in blackjack?
 

PrinceDragon

Well-Known Member
#2
Is it really worth it to learn how to count cards
To me it is.
Whats the most anybody has made in one day with blackjack?
You don't wanna know my #'s:laugh:
I mean, you never hear of famous pro blackjack players.
You need to get out of the wood some more.

Whereas with poker I know several from the top of my head, all of who made millions playing poker.
Too much ESPN for ya:grin:
A friend tells me the other day that he knows a guy at our school who makes $10,000 a month just by playing poker online.
I'm not saying it's impossible.....But did he show you any prove...ummm...doubt it

Only hand full of people able to make a living at gambling,...Are you the one?

P.D.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#3
MOOLA said:
Whats the most anybody has made in one day with blackjack?

Whereas with poker I know several from the top of my head, all of who made millions playing poker.

A friend tells me the other day that he knows a guy at our school who makes $10,000 a month just by playing poker online. It gets you thinking, "maybe I'm betting at the wrong game here."

can you make 10 grand a month counting cards in blackjack?
"you know several million dollar poker winners" well the are some million dollar basketball players as well, but that doesn't mean anyone can get there. "your friend knows a guy at school that made $10,000 amonth playing poker online" Look at the 60 minutes report about thousands and thousands of college students in financial ruins (or their parents) due to online gambling. "can you make $10,000 a month playing blackjack?" you can. but, it's not the quick and easy riches you are looking for.
 
Last edited:

Thunder

Well-Known Member
#4
I find that I make more playing poker than BJ but it's getting harder and harder to win at poker as the bad players get weeded out and don't play anymore. Poker in '09 isn't what it was 3 years ago even.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#5
MOOLA said:
Blackjack card counting?

or

Poker strategy and skills?

Which one makes you more money?
I don't play poker but I assume that there are more soft poker games available than countable BJ games. The profitability of either game is completely dependent on your skill and bankroll, although poker also depends on the skill of your opponents as well. If you really want to make money then you should learn both. You will be able to find many more opportunities if you know how to play many different games.

MOOLA said:
I mean, you never hear of famous pro blackjack players.
There’s a reason for that. As soon as a pro BJ player becomes famous, his career is over. The only famous BJ players are either authors, system sellers or tournament players.

MOOLA said:
can you make 10 grand a month counting cards in blackjack?
Yes. Not consistently, but yes. If you know more advanced strategies then the money comes more consistently.

-Sonny-
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#6
MOOLA said:
A friend tells me the other day that he knows a guy at our school who makes $10,000 a month just by playing poker online.
The odds are your friend is lying or has been lied to. There are people who make $10,000 a month playing poker online and people who make $10,000 a month playing blackjack online, but the probability that you know one of them is low.

MOOLA said:
the 10,000 he made with online poker? or the 600 I made with blackjack?
Here's the fundamental difference: even if your friend's friend made $10,000 a month playing blackjack, that doesn't mean that you can do the same. Maybe your friend's friend has been playing for years and was down $60,000 at one point in his life. Maybe your friend's friend is a poker genius and destined to be the next Doyle Brunson.

There are good reasons to play poker over blackjack - that you can make $10,000 a month online is not one of those good reasons.

(1) Poker is nice because the house doesn't care if you win massively at poker.
(2) Poker is nice because the variance (at least in limit) is lower than blackjack per EV.
(3) Poker is nice because you get to see your cards before you commit your big bets, so the dependence on skill is greater.
 

Renzey

Well-Known Member
#7
MOOLA said:
Blackjack card counting? or Poker strategy and skills?
Is it really worth it to learn how to count cards, learn the systems and get good enough where you can make something, anything? I mean, you never hear of famous pro blackjack players. Whereas with poker I know several from the top of my head, all of who made millions playing poker.
All the reasons mentioned by the posters above are worth stating. But the biggest reason to learn blackjack over poker its higher probability of success. Poker is a highly psychological "skill" game, and there is no "system" per se for learning how to win at it. Once you get passed its basic card probabilities, it is largely a game of "feel". You could study/play poker passionately for 5000 hours and very possibly never reach overall winning status. You never know it all, but rather are always learning -- as are your surviving opponents.

Blackjack however, is more finite. You can read a couple of books, get a system down pat, learn to understand risk, develop a persona, and within 200 hours you're not unlikely to be a winning player. After your first 200 hours of poker, you have no idea how much you don't know -- and may never!

Sit 20 eager students down in a classroom. Teach 10 of them winning blackjack and teach the other 10 winning poker strategy for 200 hours each -- then send them on their ways. Perhaps half of the blackjack players will succeed. How many successful poker players? Quite possibly none -- they haven't even scratched the surface of the real game.
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#8
Renzey said:
Poker is a highly psychological "skill" game, and there is no "system" per se for learning how to win at it. Once you get passed its basic card probabilities, it is largely a game of "feel".
I disagree in the case of low limit Texas Hold'Em. The game is popular among novices, and cheap enough to play badly, that a simple strategy and a few hours of practice can very easily yield a win rate of 1 big blind/hr (and 2-3 BB/hr with a moderate amount of effort). You can probably win more at $3/$6 limit than $5 unit blackjack with the same amount of effort, or the same amount of money for much less effort.

I agree with your statement as no-limit or higher-limit games are considered. In those cases, interpersonal skills and being able to play the players is more valuable. But with LLHE, the players are so piss poor that a strict mathematical strategy will handily beat them.
 
#9
callipygian said:
I disagree in the case of low limit Texas Hold'Em. The game is popular among novices, and cheap enough to play badly, that a simple strategy and a few hours of practice can very easily yield a win rate of 1 big blind/hr (and 2-3 BB/hr with a moderate amount of effort). You can probably win more at $3/$6 limit than $5 unit blackjack with the same amount of effort, or the same amount of money for much less effort.

I agree with your statement as no-limit or higher-limit games are considered. In those cases, interpersonal skills and being able to play the players is more valuable. But with LLHE, the players are so piss poor that a strict mathematical strategy will handily beat them.
I disagree with your comments regarding LIMIT holdem - This is a FAR tougher game to play online than NO-LIMIT from my experience and most players play a perfect mathematical strategy so all you doing is passing money around the table with the hope that somebody slips up! These tables are also full of BOT players on the most popular networks which makes them unplayable.

It is also much harder to yield 2-3BB/hr on the LIMIT tables than the NO-LIMIT tables owing to the restrictions on bet size.

Although I agree that the lower blinds level players are poorer, these tables are not worth the time and effort on a per hour basis to make it worth your while. Also, with high flop%'s it is more of a crapshoot with frequent suck outs and larger variance. These tables are so wild that they are almost impossible to read.
 

mjbballar23

Well-Known Member
#10
poker vs. blackjack

if you have a small bankroll (less than $5k) poker is likely more profitable (much lower ROR); however, if you accumulate a large bankroll ($50k+) blackjack becomes more profitable. Obviously there are many factors that affect the profitability of each game that could make one more profitable than other.
 

rollem411

Well-Known Member
#11
I play both recreationally. It's a very nice tandum. If the BJ tables are crowded, play poker. If your not playing good poker, hit the tables.

You don't have to learn one or the other and counting is a good idea to get into if your going to spend a lot of time in the casinos.
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#12
SuperTrump said:
I disagree with your comments regarding LIMIT holdem - This is a FAR tougher game to play online than NO-LIMIT from my experience and most players play a perfect mathematical strategy so all you doing is passing money around the table with the hope that somebody slips up! These tables are also full of BOT players on the most popular networks which makes them unplayable.

It is also much harder to yield 2-3BB/hr on the LIMIT tables than the NO-LIMIT tables owing to the restrictions on bet size.

Although I agree that the lower blinds level players are poorer, these tables are not worth the time and effort on a per hour basis to make it worth your while. Also, with high flop%'s it is more of a crapshoot with frequent suck outs and larger variance. These tables are so wild that they are almost impossible to read.
I think he was referring to live games.

I would NOT recommend online poker to anyone now. The games are filled with players running tracking software and playing 10-20 tables at once.

Live poker is another story, and if you're good, you can slaughter it.
 
Last edited:

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#13
I concur with both callipygian and moo321.

IF one can play low stakes poker well, it is extraordinarily profitable
due to there being incredible numbers of clueless amateur players.
 

Renzey

Well-Known Member
#14
FLASH1296 said:
IF one can play low stakes poker well, it is extraordinarily profitable due to there being incredible numbers of clueless amateur players.
Don't forget about the high cummulative effect of the rake in low stakes poker. A live $3/$6 limit Hold'em game will often be raked one big blind ($6). Also, the smaller games often have an additional $1 "bad beat jackpot" raked from the pot. Then there's the obligatory dealer's tip (around 50 cents). Finally, remember that poker has variance too. If you've played a couple hundred hours with novices and have been crushing the game, check and see how the next 200 hours go. By then you will have paid around $7000 in rake and tips -- in a very small game!

It's tough to overcome the rake at low limit poker. Picture 10 players sitting down at a $3/$6 Hold'em table with each buying in for $100, putting a total of $1000 in the game. The dealer cranks out 35 hands per hour and rakes an average of $5 from each pot (due to some hands not going to the river). The winner of each pot then tips the dealer 50 cents -- occasionally $1. If nobody ever re-bought in and no new blood sat down, after 5 hours, the house will have taken the entire $1000 off the table!
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#15
Correction to post by Renzey

I have played Poker all across the country and I have NEVER seen a rake that exceeded $5,
(excluding the 100% return dollar for bonuses or Bad beat Jackpots).

Most poker rooms charge $4 with some locals joints in Nevada charging $3.

Personally, I only play no-limit Hold Em -- where the atrocious play of tourists and casual players is beyond egregious, to the point of being suicidal.
 

hawkeye

Well-Known Member
#16
:laugh::laugh:

I've heard the "Friend who makes $10,000 a month playing online poker" from 5 or 6 people over the past few years. I can't believe smart people still honestly drag that one out, you might as well start talking about kidney thieves...urban legend.

If this friend did make 10k playing poker in a month, he forgot to mention that he lost back $9,990 of it in that same month.

At least with blackjack you know what you're up against. You know the rules, you know what you have to do. With poker you don't know what you need to win the hand. Sometimes 3 Queens is a killer hand, sometimes it's not even the third best hand at the table. Knowing the difference is hard. A lot of people like to think they could be a great poker player. And thousands of them goto the World Series every year and drop lots of money, and very few get any of it back. It's doable, but hard.

Blackjack players and poker players are usually different breeds altogether. Blackjack players don't play with feelings, it's stats.
 

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#17
FLASH1296 said:
Personally, I only play no-limit Hold Em -- where the atrocious play of tourists and casual players is beyond egregious, to the point of being suicidal.
I find it hard to believe the play could be any worse than it is at the low limit Hold'Em tables. I always thought that the low limit tables were populated with tourists who were not only morons and novices, but also too wimpy to play no-limit.

In particular, I'm a big fan of playing at the highest lowest limit table available - that is, in a geographic area, the casino whose cheapest limit table is the highest among the various casinos. The bad players gravitate towards the lowest limit tables within sight, so the $4/$8 game at the Bellagio is easier than the $4/$8 game at the Luxor.

Maybe this next trip I'll check out some $1/$3 NL games and see what the competition is like. If there's anything but minimal resistance, I'll go back to limit. The truth is that I'm a pretty mediocre poker player, so I'd rather hit the elementary school and beat up kids for their lunch money rather than have an actual fight with a middle schooler for theirs. :p
 

Canceler

Well-Known Member
#19
hawkeye said:
I've heard the "Friend who makes $10,000 a month playing online poker" from 5 or 6 people over the past few years.
I have a neighbor who works in property management. She recently had occasion to check out a guy who had no regular job, but claimed to be making a ton of money playing online poker. She saw his bank statements, which, sure enough, showed large amounts of money coming in regularly. But I’m still skeptical; the money could have been coming from anywhere.

hawkeye said:
With poker you don't know what you need to win the hand.
That’s for darn sure! It’s especially annoying to see someone win with a pair, or even a high card, when in the last hand my trips went down in flames.
 

Renzey

Well-Known Member
#20
FLASH1296 said:
I have played Poker all across the country and I have NEVER seen a rake that exceeded $5,
(excluding the 100% return dollar for bonuses or Bad beat Jackpots).

Most poker rooms charge $4 with some locals joints in Nevada charging $3.


I live and play in one of the largest Midwest cities in the USA. The cheapest rake in any game is $5. In $2/$5 No Limit Hold'em, they rake $8 -- because they can! Granted, more competitive gambling markets rake less. I also feel that bad beat jackpots introduce a conflictive interest to the proper play of the hand, and as such, merely constitute additional overhead.

Flash, I respect your posts and have no desire to take issue with them. I too have played poker extensively in Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Tunica, Foxwoods and Atlantic City -- some of them for over 30 years. I've been playing since Texas Hold'em was practically unheard of -- back when the only game played in Los Angeles was Draw Poker. To this day, I play other pokerforms rather than straight Hold'em -- preferably mixed games. I just feel obliged to inform other rookie poker wannabees on this site what so many seasoned poker pros have said -- "It's tough to beat the rake, long term, at low limit poker".
 
Top