zen count

#1
I was wondering if anyone uses the zen count and if they've had any success with it? I read that it's one of the more accurate systems but lacks in ease of use. I've been practicing with it for 2 days now and can go through a deck in less than a minute.
side newbie question: what do people mean when they talk about deep pens?

Thanks in advance
 

bjcount

Well-Known Member
#2
MOOLA said:
I was wondering if anyone uses the zen count and if they've had any success with it? I read that it's one of the more accurate systems but lacks in ease of use. I've been practicing with it for 2 days now and can go through a deck in less than a minute.
side newbie question: what do people mean when they talk about deep pens?

Thanks in advance
You'll need to count down much faster then that, I believe the consensus here is under 25 seconds/deck with ZERO errors.

Zen is a powerful strategy. If you learn all the indices and can become proficient with it in a real casino enviornment, then you should do well.

It will probably take you a good 4-6 months of study to get all the indices, bet spreads, and deck estimation up to speed.

Deep Pens: deep penetration - how deep into the deck/shoe the dealer goes before reshuffling. The deeper - the better.

Good luck

BJC
 

rollem411

Well-Known Member
#3
MOOLA said:
I was wondering if anyone uses the zen count and if they've had any success with it? I read that it's one of the more accurate systems but lacks in ease of use. I've been practicing with it for 2 days now and can go through a deck in less than a minute.
side newbie question: what do people mean when they talk about deep pens?

Thanks in advance
I use it and love it. People have success with all types of counts and use what works best for them. Don't let someone tell you to change a certain system you use. There is no need to change an already good thing.
 

Martin Gayle

Well-Known Member
#4
Zen benefits.

Zen is a powerful and very flexible system. I use it and it can be adapted to pitch games as well as shoe games. In pitch games use a ace side count as well. You will also have to know many, many indeces. As a result you can get away with a smaller bet spread on pitch games.
 

boneuphtoner

Well-Known Member
#5
According to Norm and Cacarulo, Zen is the most powerful level 2 strategy (without a side count of aces) in terms of SCORE under the vast majority of conditions counters will find. As others here will tell you, use the count-per-deck version, and the indices are available on Arnold Snyder's site under the library. The True Edge version has been reported by many experts as being vastly inferior to the count per deck method.
 
#6
boneuphtoner said:
According to Norm and Cacarulo, Zen is the most powerful level 2 strategy (without a side count of aces) in terms of SCORE under the vast majority of conditions counters will find. As others here will tell you, use the count-per-deck version, and the indices are available on Arnold Snyder's site under the library. The True Edge version has been reported by many experts as being vastly inferior to the count per deck method.
[sigh] there's so much to learn. i just took a look at this http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/Zen_Count_Indices.htm and can't make anything out of it. I do understand that you obtain the true count by dividing the running count by the # of decks remaining in the shoe, but what is true edge and how do you obtain this number? what are indices? what are they used for? Why multiply the zen true edge by 4 to get the true count per deck? I'm really new to all of this. I went here http://www.bj21.com/gamemaster/gamemasterclassicsindex.shtml for basics on counting cards which was very helpful with understanding concepts but the figures they provide I assume are vastly different with the zen count which they do not address. What's the difference with a true count of +1 in High/Low and a +1 in zen count?
I know that Arnold Snyder has a more detailed description of the zen count system in his book blackbelt for blackjack, but do I have to buy the book to obtain this info. Is there free content out there that I can read? I just don't know how to utilize the zen count in a real life situation.

This is what I imagine a zen counter has to deal with at a real table (tell me if im wrong)...
they start counting with a newly shuffled deck(s) and keeps their bet at the minimum while playing with BS. Once penetration reaches 65% or more they take the running total and convert it to a true count and bet accordingly. If at a - they keep the unit at 1 and if at a + count they bet 1-10 units more.
Hopefully by the end of it they come out profitable? I assume this is like all other systems right?


I'm confused :confused:
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#9
Moola,

Do not be cheap.

Buy and study "Blackbelt in Blackjack" by Arnold Snyder

The book not only presents the Zen Count, but beginner level counts also.

Note: unless you have, at the very least, a few thousand dollars to employ as
a playing bankroll, buy and study the book, while saving your money.
You cannot safely count cards with just a few hundred dollars.

MOST IMPORTANTLY: Take your time. Study and practice A LOT before you venture forth into the "House of the Rising Sun".


 
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#10
Do not be cheap.
Buy and study "Blackbelt in Blackjack" by Arnold Snyder...
:laugh: I am cheap and damn proud of it! :laugh:
but I think I will invest in this book. There's only bits and pieces of free info on the web on the zen count anyways so I think I HAVE to purchase it.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#11
MOOLA said:
…what is true edge and how do you obtain this number?
Forget about the true edge method. Just use the true count method like everybody else does. Divide the running count by the number of decks remaining and you’re done.

MOOLA said:
what are indices? what are they used for?
The Frequently Asked Questions thread has some good information about that.

MOOLA said:
What's the difference with a true count of +1 in High/Low and a +1 in zen count?
The difference is that the advantages at each TC will be different. Zen is a level 2 system so it will find more positive counts than a level 1 system. It will also give you a more accurate estimation of your advantage at each TC. The method of using Zen is identical to using HiLo but the advantages are different.

MOOLA said:
I know that Arnold Snyder has a more detailed description of the zen count system in his book blackbelt for blackjack, but do I have to buy the book to obtain this info.
You don’t have to buy the book but you really should. It covers a lot of information beyond using the Zen system. You can’t just learn a counting system and expect to make money. There are a lot of other things that you must learn before you can be successful. Entire books have been written on things like cover techniques, game scouting, advanced techniques, optimal betting and bankroll management. Snyder's book gives a great introduction to that information.

MOOLA said:
Once penetration reaches 65% or more they take the running total and convert it to a true count and bet accordingly.
Don’t wait for 65% penetration. You should be calculating the TC at the beginning of every hand. There may be some good opportunities at the beginning of the shoe that you would miss out on, or the shoe might go negative right away and you’ll need to Wong out. In some cases you will have to re-calculate the TC after the cards are dealt in order to play your hand properly.

-Sonny-
 
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FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#13
I see that you are just kidding, as indicated by the "smileys"

BUT, this actually IS an issue, here, on a free forum.

I have often suggested certain texts to people who claim that they are highly motivated to be A.P.'s

Often, the books are neither obtained nor read.

If someone is too cheap to spend a few dollars on a book, how are they going to be objective with issue re: betting and bankroll, etc. ?

If someone is too lazy to study or too headstrong to put in the hours of study and practice that is needed,
he is probably just a gambler, hungry for action, who thinks that Card Counting will help him to win


.
 

bjcount

Well-Known Member
#15
MOOLA said:
:laugh: I am cheap and damn proud of it! :laugh:
but I think I will invest in this book. There's only bits and pieces of free info on the web on the zen count anyways so I think I HAVE to purchase it.
Go to half.com and you can get it a used copy for 10-12 bucks dlvd.

BJC
 
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