Playing as a Pro

[tribute]

How much income do professional blackjack players make? I'm talking about a real, experienced, pro. Annually? Hourly?

[FLASH1296]

Nobody knows for sure, but pros like myself, generally keep very low profiles, leading lives in the shadows.

Among pro players the best guesses as to how many pros there are in the U S A run between 200 and 300.

It is my best guess that nearly all of us are "grinders" satisfied to have secretive, untaxed, unearned income - that will perhaps equate to double or triple or maybe even quadruple minimum wage - when normalized to a standard 40 hr. work week equivalent. To survive a pro generally employs a "hit & run" strategy presenting a fleeing "moving target" for the casinos to cope with. This restricts his/her hours of play rather severely. It is early in the year but I have thus far divided my play fairly evenly between three different regions of the country.

The nonsense that appears in books and movies is a glamorized romanticized hyperbolic version of reality - because nobody cares a whit about earnings that are so modest. A cat burglar is a bore. A Jewel thief is a dashing figure.

The problem is that there are no longer any (North American) casinos that will let a skilled player exploit blackjack for high stakes. That has been an long-term irreversible trend. It has become easier and easier for casinos to "protect" their game because of new technology combined with the casinos trend toward offering poor gams for low stakes and better games or high stakes, sequestered into a "High Limit Room" where the few "good" games that are being "threatened" are very easily (closely) surveilled.

[tribute]

Originally Posted by FLASH1296

The nonsense that appears in books and movies is a glamorized romanticized hyperbolic version of reality - because nobody cares a whit about earnings that are so modest. A cat burglar is a bore. A Jewel thief is a dashing figure.

Seems to me there may not be any real, true, blackjack "Pros" out there any more.

[Finn Dog]

Originally Posted by FLASH1296

Nobody knows for sure, but pros like myself, generally keep very low profiles, leading lives in the shadows.

Among pro players the best guesses as to how many pros there are in the U S A run between 200 and 300.

Flash, what's your best guess as to what percentage of that 200 to 300 pro estimate still eeks out a hundred grand or better?

Also, would you estimate most pros play single $100 units or is it higher?

(I remember that in Burning The Tables IA played $300 units. IIRC, he said he knew several pros who earned in the low to mid hundreds...but that was of course in 1999.)

Best regards,

FD

[FLASH1296]

Finn Dog,

"Flash, what's your best guess as to what percentage of that 200 to 300 pro estimate still eeks out a hundred grand or better?

Also, would you estimate most pros play single $100 units or is it higher?

(I remember that in Burning The Tables IA played $300 units. IIRC, he said he knew several pros who earned in the low to mid hundreds...but that was of course in 1999.)"


As to the first question, The answer resides in how we define
a Pro. IF I define a pro as someone without earned income, who
has supported himself via playing blackjack for three (3)
or more consecutive years; then I imagine that there
are perhaps several hundred such individuals BUT < 1 %
are earning in excess of $50,000. I would guess
that nearly all are earning between 25K and 40K.

The majority of pros bet green with a weak spread or red with
a healthier spread and eke out their living that way.
I do not believe that there are any pros, fitting my definition,
who are able to bet black for long.
Casinos simply do not let skillful players bet with $100 minimums.

Basically, as a group, "professional" Card Counters, myself included,
are oddball characters. The traditional "square peg", an introverted and
mildly maladjusted intellectual, more of an outcast than an outlaw,
a person whose ability to conform to society's expectations re:
occupation is outweighed by his need to be free of said expectations.

Not wishing to cast aspersions upon Ian Anderson, it is good to nurture
a healthy sense of skepticism re: both screen and print media. After all,
even if a book's author, or a movie's director intends to be honest, their
producer or their publisher knows full well that sales are always boosted
via liberties taken with the facts. Such "creative freedom" often accompanies
claims of "Based on a True Story." It may have started out as factual, but
that was before screenwriters, editors, etc. had dressed up the final product.

I have actually met people who believed that the movie "21" was factual !

Imagine that !

R.O.T.F.L.M.A.O.

[shadroch]

I've been curious for awhile, but this seems as good a spot as any to ask this.
How does someone who is so visually impaired that he needs to post in huge font able to count cards?

[Tarzan]

There is a huge difference between present day and 20 plus years ago. Many people that are around today that see the crummy games offered compared to "the days of old" think these games, such as 8 decks and H17 are just perfectly okay, whereas anyone who saw better times and the days when a lot of Vegas casinos offered 2 to 1 blackjack payouts as a sort of promotional thing on a regular basis, etc.

Things are different now. The casinos have tightened up to maximize their HA as much as possible. They get REALLY PISSED OFF if anyone actually wins. They want people to come in, slap it down, lose, get told "better luck and see you again soon!", they will be sports about it and give you a little comp or incentive to come back... and the cycle continues... NEXT VICTIM! Any deviation from this and they don't much care for it!

The only thing a professional player can do is do the same, roll with the punches, tighten up using strategic strikes of surgical precision, try to stay under the radar, compensate by whatever means possible to offset the additional gouging on the part of the casinos. You have to be sharper and have a lot more precision these days to achieve the same sort of results you could expect to achieve 20 years ago. It's harder... a LOT harder than it ever was; Most that could perhaps have done okay "way back when" will have a much higher failure rate these days. You are up against a brick wall and there are very few people able to break bricks with their bare hands. In this day and age you have to be very picky about what tables you are willing to do battle at and your tactics in general. There are few survivors in this battle but if you are the best there is you can manage to make a reasonable sum of money.

Now I have a question, which is "Why do you ask this question? Do you aspire to play blackjack professionally? All a matter of devotion and most people simply do not have the willpower to be THAT devoted. Let's put this in terms of... football! (which might be bad because I know little about football and I will catch much flack about this like when I used some sort of racecar thing as a comparison when I in fact know nothing about racecars). I DO know a few football players even though I have to ask the day before the superbowl "So what two teams are playing?". Anyway, in gradeschool, virtually everyone gets to play football, even the worst players... we can compare this to your average tourist that has a pocket full of change and has never played blackjack. High school football is a bit different, a bit tougher and you have to try out and make the team... we can compare this to your seasoned gambler that sort of knows basic strategy and as we all know is destined to lose in the long run. Getting on the college football team is much more difficult than getting on the highschool team and I have heard it said that "college football is 100 times more difficult than highschool football" by an actual professional player... we can compare this to the novice counter that has a complete knowledge of basic strategy, the "illustrious 18" and uses a basic hi-lo count. Out of all the college football players VERY darn few actually make it to the pros...you see where I am going with this?

You can devote the sort of time, attention and devotion to this that you would spend attaining a PHD. I devote about 60 hours a week to blackjack. I wake up and do card counting/flipping drills with my morning coffee. I have read every book that is worth reading. I have perfected my use of the Tarzan/DHME system. I am always studying, evaluating and reading the thoughts of some of the esteemed experts here and elsewhere and am always looking to learn more and improve even though I have been doing this for 24 years now and playing professionally for the last three or four.

Even with all that I have seen my share of adversity that only clear, concise, rational thought and a big enough bankroll can overcome. Most don't have the emotional stability, the common sense, the ingenuity OR the bankroll required to deal with the roller coaster ride of fluctuations and this is a very tough ballgame. I would venture to say that most people are not cut out for it.

Be sure to tune in next week when I do another stupid comparison thing using F-14's and the "Top Gun" comparison when I have never actually been in a fighter jet in my entire life. I HAVE made a lot of money playing blackjack though.

Flash sees well enough to see cards slapping down on a table--This I know first hand! I am also pissed off at Flash that I can no longer call the "Tarzan System" the "Tarzan System" and have to refer to it as the "Tarzan/DHME System". That is all his fault! This I will have to live with, I suppose and I guess he has more than made up for it in any case with lots of helpful data, evaluation and personal perspective along the way.

[Bojack1]

Originally Posted by FLASH1296

Finn Dog,

"Flash, what's your best guess as to what percentage of that 200 to 300 pro estimate still eeks out a hundred grand or better?

Also, would you estimate most pros play single $100 units or is it higher?"


As to the first question, The answer resides in how we define
a Pro. IF I define a pro as someone without earned income, who
has supported himself via playing blackjack for three (3)
or more consecutive years; then I imagine that there
are perhaps several hundred such individuals BUT < 1 %
are earning in excess of $50,000. I would guess
that nearly all are earning between 25K and 40K.

The majority of pros bet green with a weak spread or red with
a healthier spread and eke out their living that way.
I do not believe that there are any pros, fitting my definition,
who are able to bet black for long.
Casinos simply do not let skillful players bet with $100 minimums.

Basically, as a group, "professional" Card Counters, myself included,
are oddball characters. The traditional "square peg", an introverted and
mildly maladjusted intellectual, more of an outcast than an outlaw,
a person whose ability to conform to society's expectations re:
occupation is outweighed by his need to be free of said expectations.

I'm sorry Flash but I must respectfully disagree with a lot of what you say. I believe you are describing the stereotype of professional blackjack more than the actuality of it. I won't divulge my income from blackjack but I will say it is out of the ballpark of your averages. As well as any earned income I have outside of blackjack has been made possible directly as a result of blackjack earnings.

There are many ways to play this game on a professional level. I agree that there are grinders but that is only a part of the community. There are variety of teams using vastly different methods of play that play for much larger stakes as well in hundreds of different venues. There are what some are called hired guns that get paid to play, there are famous players and authors that I see a lot here talk about here, running and financing million dollar national teams. Its much more than what you see in your own existence as a player. I would not play this game as a grind, its not worth it. I found a niche a long time ago. Even in this game it can be like regular business, its not always what you know but who you know. I have great respect for the grinders, if thats how they choose to go about it. But it doesn't have to be that way, and it can be just as hard to hustle the big money, but the rewards are worth the effort.

[Bojack1]

Originally Posted by Tarzan

There is a huge difference between present day and 20 plus years ago. Many people that are around today that see the crummy games offered compared to "the days of old" think these games, such as 8 decks and H17 are just perfectly okay, whereas anyone who saw better times and the days when a lot of Vegas casinos offered 2 to 1 blackjack payouts as a sort of promotional thing on a regular basis, etc.

Things are different now. The casinos have tightened up to maximize their HA as much as possible. They get REALLY PISSED OFF if anyone actually wins. They want people to come in, slap it down, lose, get told "better luck and see you again soon!", they will be sports about it and give you a little comp or incentive to come back... and the cycle continues... NEXT VICTIM! Any deviation from this and they don't much care for it!

The only thing a professional player can do is do the same, roll with the punches, tighten up using strategic strikes of surgical precision, try to stay under the radar, compensate by whatever means possible to offset the additional gouging on the part of the casinos. You have to be sharper and have a lot more precision these days to achieve the same sort of results you could expect to achieve 20 years ago. It's harder... a LOT harder than it ever was; Most that could perhaps have done okay "way back when" will have a much higher failure rate these days. You are up against a brick wall and there are very few people able to break bricks with their bare hands. In this day and age you have to be very picky about what tables you are willing to do battle at and your tactics in general. There are few survivors in this battle but if you are the best there is you can manage to make a reasonable sum of money.

Now I have a question, which is "Why do you ask this question? Do you aspire to play blackjack professionally? All a matter of devotion and most people simply do not have the willpower to be THAT devoted. Let's put this in terms of... football! (which might be bad because I know little about football and I will catch much flack about this like when I used some sort of racecar thing as a comparison when I in fact know nothing about racecars). I DO know a few football players even though I have to ask the day before the superbowl "So two what teams are playing?". Anyway, in gradeschool, virtually everyone gets to play football, even the worst players... we can compare this to your average tourist that has a pocket full of change and has never played blackjack. High school football is a bit different, a bit tougher and you have to try out and make the team... we can compare this to your seasoned gambler that sort of knows basic strategy and as we all know is destined to lose in the long run. Getting on the college football team is much more difficult than getting on the highschool team and I have heard it said that "college football is 100 times more difficult than highschool football" by an actual professional player... we can compare this to the novice counter that has a complete knowledge of basic strategy, the "illustrious 18" and uses a basic hi-lo count. Out of all the college football players VERY darn few actually make it to the pros...you see where I am going with this?

You can devote the sort of time, attention and devotion to this that you would spend attaining a PHD. I devote about 60 hours a week to blackjack. I wake up and do card counting/flipping drills with my morning coffee. I have read every book that is worth reading. I have perfected my use of the Tarzan/DHME system. I am always studying, evaluating and reading the thoughts of some of the esteemed experts here and elsewhere and am always looking to learn more and improve even though I have been doing this for 24 years now and playing professionally for the last three.

Even with all that I have seen my share of adversity that only clear, concise, rational thought and a big enough bankroll can overcome. Most don't have the emotional stability, the common sense, the ingenuity OR the bankroll required to deal with the roller coaster ride of fluctuations and this is a very tough ballgame. I would venture to say that most people are not cut out for it.

Be sure to tune in next week when I do another stupid comparison thing using F-14's and the "Top Gun" comparison when I have never actually been in a fighter jet in my entire life. I HAVE made a lot of money playing blackjack though.

Sorry Tarzan I don't completely agree with you either. I do think your football player to card counter analogy works though. After that I think its more of speaking for yourself than for all the professional community. My first bit of advice to you would be, don't try to make a living playing primarily in A.C. And if you do feel the need to, pick up the techniques better suited to the games there. A hint is, counting, no matter what the method, is not it.

[ChefJJ]

Originally Posted by FLASH1296

I would guess
that nearly all are earning between 25K and 40K.

Not bad to supplement a pension or retirement account.

good luck