Value of late surrender

Is it safe to say that for card counters, the value of surrender is much greater than .07% for shoe games (wizard of odds) since we are raising our bets a lot when the count is good. I would guess that for us, the value of it goes up to like .2%

Yeah, blackjack attack has a thing on this. I think it does indeed get as/more valuable than the S17 rule for a counter.

The beauty of surrender is that it increases our EV while decreasing our variance. The value of the rule is compounded because it allows us to make bigger bets when the count is high which further inreases our advantage. Not only does the rule give us a bigger advantage, but it allows us to bet more and earn more money when we get the edge.

-Sonny-

Sonny

Well put. I have an older article br Snyder which was excellent in taking a new look at LS concerning AP's.

But as the dealers say, "It is a sucker bet" Of course if you do not know how to use it is is indeed.

CP

Now? They always have. Unfortunately the pen is too poor to be really worthwhile.

Yes, LS raises any game to a new level and it's hard to get me to play a shoe game without it. Learn as many surrender indices as you can.

I thought S17 wasn't really all that important to a counter--whereas to a basic strategy player, it would--because when your big bets are out, the likelihood of the dealer making a decent hand out of a stiff is relatively low because there aren't that many small cards remaining?

Yeah I feel like a useless turkey because I know the values of the Fab four and what not but I never get to use it since none of the joints in AC offer it unless you're in the high roller room at the Trump Marina I believe. It's just really annoying when you have high counts and you're stuck with 14,15,16 vs the menacing face card the dealer has showing. It's almost like you're happy when the dealer has BJ because it couldn't have come at a better time. I'm just curious if anyone knows just how much it increases our EV. I know for every +1 in the TC, we get an ev of +.5% thereabout but I'm curious as to how much LS adds to this assuming a 1-10 bet spread and you start betting more when the TC hits +1.

Flash,

If I understand you correctly, you're saying the above facts negate any advantage the AP has late and at high counts vs. a dealer stiff on H17 tables...then so much for this so-called theory I've read about (on this forum IIRC!).

Instant "Skill Check" at Trump Marina in A.C.

ANY mention of Trump Marina draws my attention.
Undoubtedly there are noobies here who are going to imagine
that they can play with Late Surrender at the Trump Marina in A.C.

Here is what they need to know.

The trump Marina clearly uses Late Surrender as a "Counter Trap."
Unless things have changed a lot, it is offered only "Upon Request."
The pit will tell you that you have to wait a bit. They call the EYE.
If you use L.S. correctly, they immediately take counter-measures against you.
Back in the '90's, before I knew any better, I made the error of becoming, in effect,
a self-identified Card Counter by making this absurd request.
When the pit indicated that L.S. would be in effect for me,
I spread very lightly so as to play a break-even game and used ONLY Basic Strategy
L.S. - not even the "Fab 4" Late Surrender indices, no less the full raft of indices that I know.
As a result I was immediately half-shoed.
My experience has been confirmed by quite a few others over the years, reporting on other forums.

Here is what else you need to know:

Elsewhere, in the appropriate forum, I have posted info from the monthly Atlantic City Revenue Reports.
The HIGHEST BJ "Hold" in A.C. is at trump Plaza. If Late Surrender was a real option at Trump Marina then
there would be a tendency toward that casino having a lower hold than their 10 neighboring casinos.
Nope. No way. Theirs is the worst!

Late surrender increases the value of a shoe game by the equivalent of an extra half deck penetration. That's huge. Played perfectly you can take about an extra 50% EV out of a game with it.

Not only that, it makes lots of money for the house because rare is the player who knows how to use it even as Basic Strategy. When talking to civilians I tell them just always surrender 16 vs. 10, because that's where the bulk of the value is to a BS player, the other BS surrender plays are almost tossups at a neutral count.

Last night I got hammered in a game, Wonged into a 8D shoe and I can't believe how many times I had to surrender 14 and 15 vs. 10, but it would have been far worse without it. Monster count, equivalent of +8 for a High-Low player.

I think you mean the LOWEST BJ Hold in AC is at Trump Plaza. The highest might be at Marina. I attribute the lowest hold at TP to a fluke because Trop clearly has a better game.