Hi, Just wanted to say Hi.

[Mr.M]

I am sorry for the generic title, but sometimes surveillance does look at forums, I should have thought about before my previous post. How do I Edit the post and how do I change my user id, not very smart, To not draw attention. They may look at the topic and start reading, but if the topic is plain, they wont look. Unless of course as I have stated, the Fired up agent who wants to bust "scumbags". Surveillance term that how AP are viewed, its a doctrine that is taught early, so forgive me if I offended anyone. I won't lie thats how I was trained to view AP, but as time went on, I envied you guys for being able to swing a game to your advantage by using math. I personally love math, it was my favorite subject in school. Again I dont want to sound like Mr. Know it all, just sharing my experience.

The pit and eye. Pit, I dont know how much doing these things will drop your % over the house but I will just list what does work to threw the casino off as far as AP.

Pit

1. Toking the dealer, I know its a no-no, but the occasional play for the dealers throws the pit off allot, and surveillance if they are watching live or a tape review. I am ahead on only 2 trips to a major casino $6,000 and a bet spread of $100 x 1 to 2 x $600. By toking the dealer my skill level was rated as below average, I wont and can't tell how I know this but I do. I think the flow of the cards and the game has to be taken into consideration. I understand math probabilities are a huge part, but still some of it is luck-hot streak-charma, I also dealt in Vegas for 7 years. They dont teach anything on counting to dealers, nothing. If you toke a little, and are counting, the dealers are most floor people dont even watch. The floor in most places have the dealers make up, mind set. If the player tokes, he is cool, if he is a stiff then the whole pit just doesn't like you. But again, if the Floor is a bloodhound, this won't work as good.


2. I know its hard, but never let them watch you for too long, short plays are the best if its an aware pit.

3. If you see a floor person watching the game, its not that big. As soon as that Pit Manager or CSM come to the pit and watch. Leave ASAP, unless you have a very good shoe, finish and then leave, but I would say leave. Never let them watch you live. Or you can use step 2 down below : Very, very helpful.

Surveillance

1. Play other games, slots, even if its a very little, make sure you're rated. When they get the call and start to worry that a player is winning and is a counter. They look to other games, if its only blackjack, then you will be flagged and watched on the next trip. If you have other games it may most likely prolong them catching on. Other games help allot. I cant emphasize how huge that is. Again I would ask a counter, can you still gain enough of advantage to count and play other games, even if its $5 bet for 15 min.?

2. When you feel the Pit manager's heat or the CSM start playing a win pro or flat bet. Get up and go play slots. It could save you and they may just say he is not an AP and you won't be watched next time. That's also a question you guys can answer, are you giving up to much of an advantage. If an agent sees a plus count and the counter is not moving, were done. Thats all we need to see. On to the next assighment.

3. Its a repeat ( I know its hard, but never let them watch you for too long, short plays are the best. The absolute best. )


Again you will have those exceptions, the hard worker who wants to be the best CC in the room who may not fall for these camouflage tips, The hungry floor man looking to make a name for himself, or the sweety ass Pit Manager who is ready to stab the CSM in the back and get his job. There maybe 1 agent per room this hungry, and it will probably be a big joint. Observe what kind of employee they are, important.

[Tarzan]

You have mentioned that surveillance has a multitude of functions, such as watching activity in non-gaming areas also for anything that could possibly be a source of litigation... so just what are the chances to have them (surveillance) zoom in on a given player and scrutinize them? Is there any randomness to this?

You mentioned bottled water, hats and outward signs that are those "sure fire indicators" or stereotypical things. I have seen that said before in Cellini's book--- "Oh sure, the counter is always the guy in the baseball hat on at third base with a bottled water in front of him." Will these sorts of things alone be enough for the "eager beaver" surveillance type to look closer at a player?

Next of all, is there any collusion between pit and surveillance to speak of? What I mean is if a player bangs a steady, consistent win factor and uses a players card, is this a guarantee that the player will be looked at more closely?

[creeping panther]

I am sorry for the generic title, but sometimes surveillance does look at forums, I should have thought about before my previous post. How do I Edit the post and how do I change my user id, not very smart, To not draw attention. They may look at the topic and start reading, but if the topic is plain, they wont look. Unless of course as I have stated, the Fired up agent who wants to bust "scumbags". Surveillance term that how AP are viewed, its a doctrine that is taught early, so forgive me if I offended anyone. I won't lie thats how I was trained to view AP, but as time went on, I envied you guys for being able to swing a game to your advantage by using math. I personally love math, it was my favorite subject in school. Again I dont want to sound like Mr. Know it all, just sharing my experience.

The pit and eye. Pit, I dont know how much doing these things will drop your % over the house but I will just list what does work to threw the casino off as far as AP.

Pit

1. Toking the dealer, I know its a no-no, but the occasional play for the dealers throws the pit off allot, and surveillance if they are watching live or a tape review. I am ahead on only 2 trips to a major casino $6,000 and a bet spread of $100 x 1 to 2 x $600. By toking the dealer my skill level was rated as below average, I wont and can't tell how I know this but I do. I think the flow of the cards and the game has to be taken into consideration. I understand math probabilities are a huge part, but still some of it is luck-hot streak-charma, I also dealt in Vegas for 7 years. They dont teach anything on counting to dealers, nothing. If you toke a little, and are counting, the dealers are most floor people dont even watch. The floor in most places have the dealers make up, mind set. If the player tokes, he is cool, if he is a stiff then the whole pit just doesn't like you. But again, if the Floor is a bloodhound, this won't work as good.


2. I know its hard, but never let them watch you for too long, short plays are the best if its an aware pit.

3. If you see a floor person watching the game, its not that big. As soon as that Pit Manager or CSM come to the pit and watch. Leave ASAP, unless you have a very good shoe, finish and then leave, but I would say leave. Never let them watch you live. Or you can use step 2 down below : Very, very helpful.

Surveillance

1. Play other games, slots, even if its a very little, make sure you're rated. When they get the call and start to worry that a player is winning and is a counter. They look to other games, if its only blackjack, then you will be flagged and watched on the next trip. If you have other games it may most likely prolong them catching on. Other games help allot. I cant emphasize how huge that is. Again I would ask a counter, can you still gain enough of advantage to count and play other games, even if its $5 bet for 15 min.?

2. When you feel the Pit manager's heat or the CSM start playing a win pro or flat bet. Get up and go play slots. It could save you and they may just say he is not an AP and you won't be watched next time. That's also a question you guys can answer, are you giving up to much of an advantage. If an agent sees a plus count and the counter is not moving, were done. Thats all we need to see. On to the next assighment.

3. Its a repeat ( I know its hard, but never let them watch you for too long, short plays are the best. The absolute best. )


Again you will have those exceptions, the hard worker who wants to be the best CC in the room who may not fall for these camouflage tips, The hungry floor man looking to make a name for himself, or the sweety ass Pit Manager who is ready to stab the CSM in the back and get his job. There maybe 1 agent per room this hungry, and it will probably be a big joint. Observe what kind of employee they are, important.

My recommendation to you is to have Ken, Sonny. bust the original thread and this one and start all over again with a more subtle handle.

I have a real concern that you could do damage to your career.

Just contact Sonny or Ken through a PM. Do this ASAP!

CP

[Finn Dog]

1. Toking the dealer, I know its a no-no, but the occasional play for the dealers throws the pit off allot

Mr. M,

Does the occasional play for the dealer get noticed more (and appreciated more by the dealer and pit) than say simply handing over some chips to the dealer off the top of a Natural? Or are a bunch of small tips from Naturals better?

After all, a play for the dealer is quite a toke when playing Green (and a detriment to EV)--let alone Black .

Best regards,

FD

[Cherry7Up]

Originally Posted by Finn Dog

... After all, a play for the dealer is quite a toke when playing Green (and a detriment to EV)--let alone Black . ...
FD

Everywhere I have played allows bets for the dealer to be for any amount the player desires (i.e. significantly less than the amount the player bets for him/herself).

[Finn Dog]

Originally Posted by Cherry7Up

Everywhere I have played allows bets for the dealer to be for any amount the player desires (i.e. significantly less than the amount the player bets for him/herself).

Whew, sure glad I didn't make that mistake!

Now, please join me in a good laugh at my expense:



Thanks.

[Mr.M]

Originally Posted by Tarzan

You have mentioned that surveillance has a multitude of functions, such as watching activity in non-gaming areas also for anything that could possibly be a source of litigation... so just what are the chances to have them (surveillance) zoom in on a given player and scrutinize them? Is there any randomness to this?

You mentioned bottled water, hats and outward signs that are those "sure fire indicators" or stereotypical things. I have seen that said before in Cellini's book--- "Oh sure, the counter is always the guy in the baseball hat on at third base with a bottled water in front of him." Will these sorts of things alone be enough for the "eager beaver" surveillance type to look closer at a player?

Next of all, is there any collusion between pit and surveillance to speak of? What I mean is if a player bangs a steady, consistent win factor and uses a players card, is this a guarantee that the player will be looked at more closely?

No, unless you have the agent who just hunts counters. I was in and out. I would get into for a month or two, then just do what was required and nothing else. Really depends on the room, if its a weak room, you only have to watch the pits actions before you leave.

Ohh yes, a hat alone will get you watched. Honestly, just look as normal as you can, no suits, glsses. Dont look professional, or classy. Be a tourist.

Yes, but if they cant prove that he is an advantage player, then they don't do anything. Unless of course youre winning every trip and a lifetime winner. The casino will just ask the player to not play here, I never sw but we had a guy who came in for months. He was ahead 10 million and they would sweat this so hard, watch the dealer, collect the cards after he left. Looking for any reason to booth him. I think the general thought is eventually the casino will get the money back and they let them play. Some pits and surveillance departments dont get along, egos and ****.

[Mr.M]

Originally Posted by creeping panther

My recommendation to you is to have Ken, Sonny. bust the original thread and this one and start all over again with a more subtle handle.

I have a real concern that you could do damage to your career.

Just contact Sonny or Ken through a PM. Do this ASAP!

CP

How do I contact them? Great idea, my career is done for the next 10 years till the next flow of supervisors come in. I dont want to work in the casinos anymore for now. ****ing bastards, they are so fuking evil. I went to my unemployment hearing and they have these guys paid off to. Casinos own Vegas, they dish out too muchmoney and have everyone bought off.

[Mr.M]

Originally Posted by Finn Dog

Mr. M,

Does the occasional play for the dealer get noticed more (and appreciated more by the dealer and pit) than say simply handing over some chips to the dealer off the top of a Natural? Or are a bunch of small tips from Naturals better?

After all, a play for the dealer is quite a toke when playing Green (and a detriment to EV)--let alone Black .

Best regards,

FD

Play it and the dealer is your freind, and the pit is less concerned. The pit, not CSM'S or PM, I mean floor supervisor. Most supervisors were dealers so they dont sweat you when you tip. I think its the best cover, I just dont know if its worth doing. It cuts into your bottom dollar, but it adds a little life to your play. Someone please answer me, if you throw out the occasional bet. If you bet red, then toke a dollar, if you bet Green, bet an occasional red does this hurt youre overall win??????? a fifth of your base bet is enough to keep the Dealer and Floor happy. I shouldnt say every floor person is like this, I wood say 80%, but again you will have always the guy who wants to move up. The Bloodhound, the Sweater. You will be able to spot them easily, the main push for the Floor is ratings and customer service, they are not trained on anything else, unless they take the intitiative to learn it. Most people don't, why work harder than you have to.

[Finn Dog]

Ohh yes, a hat alone will get you watched. Honestly, just look as normal as you can, no suits, glsses. Dont look professional, or classy. Be a tourist.

Mr. M:

I know the stereotypical counter--and what I've heard gets the surveillance department's attention--wears a baseball cap, sits at third base, is very young, therefore probably has a beard to look older, never talks to others, doesn't drink alcohol, never looks up, and always has a hand resting on his chin to cover some part of his face.

Therefore, getting back to and focusing on the hat: does this scrutiny apply to any hat--how about a cowboy hat? (And what if that person was dressed in Western attire from head to toe--given Vegas' Western heritage and all)?

Thanks again!

FD