Casinos dont know if your cheating??

[lucifer]

If the eye knows you are seeing the hole card in bj, and your winning a fortune,how does the casino know your not cheating. I know its not illegal to take advantage of a weak dealer, but what is the usual response from the casino, when security shows up. They dont know if your in with the dealer or not. If you refuse to go to the back room and answer questions, because you know your not cheating, do they have to let you go, or can they make you come with them under some probable cause type law. what is the legal right of the casino compared to your legal rights. both sides can be considered right.

[Automatic Monkey]

Originally Posted by lucifer

If the eye knows you are seeing the hole card in bj, and your winning a fortune,how does the casino know your not cheating. I know its not illegal to take advantage of a weak dealer, but what is the usual response from the casino, when security shows up. They dont know if your in with the dealer or not. If you refuse to go to the back room and answer questions, because you know your not cheating, do they have to let you go, or can they make you come with them under some probable cause type law. what is the legal right of the casino compared to your legal rights. both sides can be considered right.

For them to have probable cause to believe you are cheating they have to see you do something that indicates you are probably cheating. That's what it would take for them to legally detain you. It has to be something articulable, like "I saw the subject bend a card, then make a play which gave him an advantage when the same bent card was subsequently held by the dealer.

Once they detain you they have committed themselves just like a police officer does when he arrests you and they can't just say "OK I guess we can't prove it. Sorry" without any consequences. In any state but Nevada the advantage would then turn to you and you would have grounds for a civil and/or criminal case against the casino. But gaming is Nevada's only industry and you can expect all disputes to be settled in a casino's favor.

What's trickier is a situation where someone else marks or bends cards, walks away, and you sit down, notice damaged cards and play them to your advantage. Technically you could be cheating because the person who damaged the cards could be your accomplice. But the casino is obliged to replace damaged cards and it's not your fault if they allow marked cards to remain in play. A perfect way to play a marked-card game is to have the card marker and the mark player be there at different times and have nothing to do with one another.

[lucifer]

im talking about hole carding. its legal, if your not connected with the dealer.how would they know upfront if your working with the dealer. marking cards isnt legal, but its hard to prove.

[Automatic Monkey]

Originally Posted by lucifer

im talking about hole carding. its legal, if your not connected with the dealer.how would they know upfront if your working with the dealer. marking cards isnt legal, but its hard to prove.

Good question, they don't know but the burden of proof is on them. They have every right to fire the dealer if he exposes his cards and that will be an immediate solution to the problem with that one dealer. Then they'll probably never know if you were working together.

It actually is not illegal to mark cards, as long as the mark is not used to play the game with an advantage. This is why having unconnected people do the marking and the playing is a powerful technique and although I would never mark cards, if I were playing and saw marked cards in play I would not hesitate to take advantage. When cards are handled by the public they get marked and damaged all the time and I've seen everything from chicken grease to nose-pick on cards at a table just from the usual slobbishness of people. There's nothing that can be done about it other than requiring all players to wear white gloves at the table.

[Sonny]

The #1 sign that you play in AC too much:

Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey

...I've seen everything from chicken grease to nose-pick on cards at a table just from the usual slobbishness of people.

-Sonny-

[bjcounter]

LMAO

[callipygian]

Originally Posted by Sonny

The #1 sign that you play in AC too much

Is AC any worse than the low-end places in Las Vegas? I used to play poker in the Excalibur poker room, where they'd serve dinner for the players, and the card shufflers would jam all the time around dinner from all the crap people would smear on the cards.

I heard Excalibur recently got rid of cards entirely and put in a computerized poker system; I'm willing to bet part of it is the disgusting slobs that play there just so they can get a free deep fried everything meal. At least you can wipe down a computer screen.

[Pelerus]

Originally Posted by callipygian

I heard Excalibur recently got rid of cards entirely and put in a computerized poker system; I'm willing to bet part of it is the disgusting slobs that play there just so they can get a free deep fried everything meal. At least you can wipe down a computer screen.

Wow, a poker room at a major casino did away with physical cards? That surprises me.

[lucifer]

the poker machines are actually great.THose that say it wont catch on are fooling themselves.excalibur had a exclusive and that has now ended.3.00 rake.no tipping.twice as many hands an hour.no mistakes.poker dealers will be extinct in 5 years.

[ihate17]

Originally Posted by lucifer

If the eye knows you are seeing the hole card in bj, and your winning a fortune,how does the casino know your not cheating. I know its not illegal to take advantage of a weak dealer, but what is the usual response from the casino, when security shows up. They dont know if your in with the dealer or not. If you refuse to go to the back room and answer questions, because you know your not cheating, do they have to let you go, or can they make you come with them under some probable cause type law. what is the legal right of the casino compared to your legal rights. both sides can be considered right.

Luckily, every cardcounting backoff I have experienced in the past bunch of years has been professional and polite (back in 80's a few were rough).
I was caught holecarding and though not backroomed, it was nasty, and I was tossed, not backedoff.
This is understandable to me and from a casino point of view.
The cardcounter is a problem but they are sure he is doing nothing illegal, so just back him off and let him become the problem of some other casino. In most cases they record it for their corporate casinos to see but do not flyer you basically saying to you to take your counting to our competition.

The holecarder is a problem where they must do a ton of investigation if they want to determine if he is cheating or they have a weak dealer. Either way, it is embarrising to them to let someone cheat or have poorly trained dealers.
Is the playing using something like a shinner to get a view?
Is the dealer weak or is he working with that player and can we get enough video to possibly prove cheating?

The fact that a holecarder will continue to return to that same casino and search for that same dealer would not be proof in my opinion. As a holecarder, I keep a list of weak dealers with stuff like the casino, his shift, name and description in order to possibly find him upon my return. Certain proof of cheating would probably require filming some other form of contact between them, seeing a combination of other acts besides the hole card view or something else.

Because that burden is so great (arrests that do not hold up can still be made though), the expediant thing is for the casino to 86 the player and investigate and or retrain the dealer.

So, my answer to your question is that they could back room you, though it will be an illegal act on their part. They could trump up false charges such as card marking (Grosjean/Russo) or if they went colllusion then expect the dealer to be backroomed with you. Smarter, better decision is just toss you on the street.

ihate17