Cheap Surrender

[p4r4m]

Hi, guys.
Have been looking at this forum for a while and reading the articles, and registered because I have a little question I can't find an answer for and don't quite have the knowledge to work it out myself unfortunately (at least not with certainty).
At the casino I usually play they have no chips lower than $1, meaning that on a $5 bet blackjack pays $13 and when surrendering you get $3 of your bet back as opposed to $2.50. Likewise on a $15 bet you would get $8 back etc.
Out of curiousity, I was wondering if anyone knew what kind of effect this would have on house edge? And my question...because of this does it mean perhaps that I should surrender a little more frequently when I have a $5 bet out, as opposed to the normal situations dictated by basic strategy? How about in a high count?

Thanks¬

[FLASH1296]

This is a good deal.

Better than it looks as long as you ALWAYS bet an amount that gains you the 50 cents, i.e. $5 or $15, etc.

On a $5 bet fifty cents is 10% - and that is A LOT.

It does mean that you should surrender in all borderline situations and a little more frequently yet when the count accelerates.

What count do you use?

What indices are you using for surrender?

What are the other rules and penetration that you are playing under.

Whereabouts do you play BJ?

[Mimosine]

i'm going to take a small guess that as long as the rest of the rules are standard say a house edge of around .5 that even a BS player, or perhaps a modified BS player might have a break even game here. it should not be too difficult to find the hands you should surrender.

get a good BS table out, try BJ Attack and look for the EVs for each hand, notice immediately that 15 and 16 v T have a -0.5+ (can't remember how much, more than 0.51) EV for both hitting and standing. Thus surrendering gives you a -0.50 EV thus it is the right play. in your case surrendering give you a -0.40 EV!!!!! on a $5 bet. -.466666 on a $15 bet and -0.48 on a $25 bet. On a $51 bet EV is -0.490, but for the $50 bet EV is -0.50.

so for the MIN flat bettor playing BS, you're in a good game. my crude guess is for $5 play, scan the entire table of BS values for any hand with a more negative EV than 0.40. if you find any, then you should be surrendering them!

your BJs are paying 2.6:1 not 2.5:1, again, only on a $5 bet. bet in any case you can, make sure your bet is ODD to gain an extra $0.50. The more i think about it you are playing a really close to even game just by playing BS, and with a modified surrender table you might exceed the house edge.

[Automatic Monkey]

Originally Posted by p4r4m

Hi, guys.
Have been looking at this forum for a while and reading the articles, and registered because I have a little question I can't find an answer for and don't quite have the knowledge to work it out myself unfortunately (at least not with certainty).
At the casino I usually play they have no chips lower than $1, meaning that on a $5 bet blackjack pays $13 and when surrendering you get $3 of your bet back as opposed to $2.50. Likewise on a $15 bet you would get $8 back etc.
Out of curiousity, I was wondering if anyone knew what kind of effect this would have on house edge? And my question...because of this does it mean perhaps that I should surrender a little more frequently when I have a $5 bet out, as opposed to the normal situations dictated by basic strategy? How about in a high count?

Thanks¬

I'm going to guess you are playing either in Puerto Rico, or a certain place where pasties would be found on the menu, not on strippers, because there are no strippers there.

Flash is right, always bet an odd dollar amount. At higher counts you're going to have a lot more than $5 on the table so the margin you get out of this will be quite small, but every little bit helps and I doubt it will draw much suspicion.

[Renzey]

Originally Posted by p4r4m

A $5 bet blackjack pays $13, and when surrendering you get $3 of your $5 bet back as opposed to $2.50. Likewise on a $15 bet you would get $8 back etc. I was wondering if anyone knew what kind of effect this would have on house edge? And my question...because of this does it mean perhaps that I should surrender a little more frequently when I have a $5 bet out, as opposed to the normal situations dictated by basic strategy?

The 8-to-5 payoff on a $5 blackjack improves your EV by .47% at those stakes (shoe game assumed). A quick look at getting back 60% of your $5 bet on surrender means you should surrender at least:

16 vs. 7
15 & 16 vs. 8
14, 15, 16 & 8/8 vs. 9
13, 14, 15, 16 & 8/8 vs. 10
13, 14, 15, 16 & 8/8 vs. Ace (assuming H17)

Don't know how often all these come up, but I'd have to say that unless the other rules are abominable, perfect basic strategy would yield a positive EV on $5 bets -- but would quickly diminish or evaporate as you bet more.

[Renzey]

Originally Posted by Renzey

A quick look at getting back 60% of your $5 bet on surrender means you should surrender at least:

16 vs. 7
15 & 16 vs. 8
14, 15, 16 & 8/8 vs. 9
13, 14, 15, 16 & 8/8 vs. 10
13, 14, 15, 16 & 8/8 vs. Ace (assuming H17)

Add to those -- hard 17 vs. 9, 10 and Ace

A very quick, rough look at the frequency of appearance of those 20 surrender hands and their respective savings has me guessing this alone is worth an extra .50% to .75% in EV.

I suppose it's all academic though, since if you wanted to gain the maximum edge as a B/S player by betting $5 at a presumably jammed up table, you could earn about $1.50/hour.

[Martin Gayle]

This is a pretty good rule. It is great for a red-chip ploppy but makes this game easily a play-all for a red-chip counter. And as has been pointed out it loses its strength the higher the stakes. If you can play for $3 it is even better. Some of the surrender rules would change as well.

Remember you are only getting the good payouts on $1, not every dollar played if it is an uneven amount. I would treat the $1 as a side bet that you can make that gets paid 2:1 on BJ and surrenders for full amount - always make it.

It might be complicated to sort out your increasing bets as the HE gets worse the more you increase your bet. But those are fractional details.

Good Positive Variance with this game!