Some simple concepts that don't get enough emphasis

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

It took me a couple years of fooling around with counting and playing until it dawned on me that we don't always see enough emphasis on table choice and general strategy.

Specifically: Sure we hear about Wonging in or out but far less about

1. The amount of players at a table cutting into the favorable percentages. It is far more useful for me to walk into a casino and scope out how full the tables are at a specific time of day and the week. Then make a note of what playing conditions are there. And maybe study when the pit crew changes shifts etc. Every real business does this. It scope out the "market".

Was just a couple weeks back when on St. Paddy's Day (I wasn't even wearing green!) that I found myself eyeing a six deck table with terrible penetration. I think it was between 60 and 66%. I forget what Arnold Snyder says is the disadvantage both from the lousy pentration, six decks and full table of players. However I just knew it had to be a waste of my time. Still, since I'd travelled so far I counted down two shoes. Each of which had little flux both negative or positive. Only jumped in with bets twice and lost each time...

OK so while getting bored and feeling wierd and worried about being labeled a casino "buzzard" I looked over at the "awful" 6:5 single table "next door". It was empty. The table never had filled much during my time next door. Despite all caution I decided to sit in and low bet a few shuffles.

Now while I forget the exact amount of percentage I give away to the house on a 6:5 (I think it's slightly over 1%) I figured the odds just had to be better than the weak six shoe deck next door. And besides back counting is not an enjoyable technique for me.

Well within ten minutes the running count soared to plus eight. So high I didn't even both converting to true count. I just knew it was good and laid my high bet down on the table. OK so I split nines twice (no DAS unfortunately). Later the count went up again but with just one other player. I split aces and got two twenty ones. Then the table filled so i split.

Now I'm not going to seek those 6:5 games intentionally. This was merely a test of a casino playing condition in an otherwise wasted trip had things not turned out well. I suppose if EVERY single deck game in the world were to eventually go to 6:5 I may still play the game but then again maybe not. hard to say. I only illustrate the matter to show what a waste some six deck shoes are. regardless of how well and patient I backcount.

Since that time I found another casino but with a good two deck game (with 3:2) and decent pentration. It opens in the afternoon and I can get at least an hour of unmolested heads up play. I spread a little less wide like 1-8. Not like in in the 6:5 where I'd been going almost 1 - 20!

The heads up play worked beautifully! After about a half hour and right before they changed dealers I found myself with a dealer who went waaayyy past the half deck point and with an astronomical high count (metaphorically speaking). At this point I was getting tired and had to force myself to stay in the two deck game. I felt a rush of electricity and the payouts just kept coming. I kept spliting and doubling for at least six hands in a row and my chip pile grew like a long train running.

So tired was I that the huge earnings of that deck were less exhilarating due to my fatigue.

And that's another concept i don't see here too often:

2. The effect of stress and fatigue on the player.

About the only time I get losing sessions is when I'm tired AND stressed. Feeling impatient I may fall off my game plan and start making higher bets below a certain threshold of advantage. At that point I'm forcing things to happen instead of patiently. I may have a slight true edge but not quite the advantage I'd have had I been full of energy and clear headed.

OK so the above stuff may not be as exciting as learning some special "Hi Opt" or level 2 or 3 counting. But the edge I get from heads up play and scoping out a casino is far superior to any kind of counting technique out there.

And I truly wished someone had told me the above stuff about three years ago. Heck if the uncrowded table conditions prevail long enough in a casino I can still win with mildly sloppy counting!

[creeping panther]

Originally Posted by AnIrishmannot2brite

It took me a couple years of fooling around with counting and playing until it dawned on me that we don't always see enough emphasis on table choice and general strategy.

Specifically: Sure we hear about Wonging in or out but far less about

1. The amount of players at a table cutting into the favorable percentages. It is far more useful for me to walk into a casino and scope out how full the tables are at a specific time of day and the week. Then make a note of what playing conditions are there. And maybe study when the pit crew changes shifts etc. Every real business does this. It scope out the "market".

Was just a couple weeks back when on St. Paddy's Day (I wasn't even wearing green!) that I found myself eyeing a six deck table with terrible penetration. I think it was between 60 and 66%. I forget what Arnold Snyder says is the disadvantage both from the lousy pentration, six decks and full table of players. However I just knew it had to be a waste of my time. Still, since I'd travelled so far I counted down two shoes. Each of which had little flux both negative or positive. Only jumped in with bets twice and lost each time...

OK so while getting bored and feeling wierd and worried about being labeled a casino "buzzard" I looked over at the "awful" 6:5 single table "next door". It was empty. The table never had filled much during my time next door. Despite all caution I decided to sit in and low bet a few shuffles.

Now while I forget the exact amount of percentage I give away to the house on a 6:5 (I think it's slightly over 1%) I figured the odds just had to be better than the weak six shoe deck next door. And besides back counting is not an enjoyable technique for me.

Well within ten minutes the running count soared to plus eight. So high I didn't even both converting to true count. I just knew it was good and laid my high bet down on the table. OK so I split nines twice (no DAS unfortunately). Later the count went up again but with just one other player. I split aces and got two twenty ones. Then the table filled so i split.

Now I'm not going to seek those 6:5 games intentionally. This was merely a test of a casino playing condition in an otherwise wasted trip had things not turned out well. I suppose if EVERY single deck game in the world were to eventually go to 6:5 I may still play the game but then again maybe not. hard to say. I only illustrate the matter to show what a waste some six deck shoes are. regardless of how well and patient I backcount.

Since that time I found another casino but with a good two deck game (with 3:2) and decent pentration. It opens in the afternoon and I can get at least an hour of unmolested heads up play. I spread a little less wide like 1-8. Not like in in the 6:5 where I'd been going almost 1 - 20!

The heads up play worked beautifully! After about a half hour and right before they changed dealers I found myself with a dealer who went waaayyy past the half deck point and with an astronomical high count (metaphorically speaking). At this point I was getting tired and had to force myself to stay in the two deck game. I felt a rush of electricity and the payouts just kept coming. I kept spliting and doubling for at least six hands in a row and my chip pile grew like a long train running.

So tired was I that the huge earnings of that deck were less exhilarating due to my fatigue.

And that's another concept i don't see here too often:

2. The effect of stress and fatigue on the player.

About the only time I get losing sessions is when I'm tired AND stressed. Feeling impatient I may fall off my game plan and start making higher bets below a certain threshold of advantage. At that point I'm forcing things to happen instead of patiently. I may have a slight true edge but not quite the advantage I'd have had I been full of energy and clear headed.

OK so the above stuff may not be as exciting as learning some special "Hi Opt" or level 2 or 3 counting. But the edge I get from heads up play and scoping out a casino is far superior to any kind of counting technique out there.

And I truly wished someone had told me the above stuff about three years ago. Heck if the uncrowded table conditions prevail long enough in a casino I can still win with mildly sloppy counting!

That is a great post, must reading for all AP's.

I nominate this for a POM Award



I am all into heads up play, and I know exactly when and where to find it. This is the ultimate "Going To War" situation. It literally makes me Quiver with excitment.

CP

[1357111317]

Would you actually recommmend playing a 6:5 single deck game though CP even if its heads up?

[EasyRhino]

On two parts, I agree wholeheartedly. Crowds are bad, and fatigue can be insidious.

As for crowds actually reducing your advantage, that's not usually true unless you're playing single deck, generally a crowded table will just slow everything down, but not affect your % results that much.

And I cannot endorse 6:5 play at all. Can CVCX or CVDATA be modded to sim just how bad that would be?

[QFIT]

Originally Posted by EasyRhino

And I cannot endorse 6:5 play at all. Can CVCX or CVDATA be modded to sim just how bad that would be?

Yes they support 6:5. It's unplayable. I don't even call it Blackjack.

[1357111317]

I don't think CVCX supports 6:5. I I didn't see an option for it.

[DonR]

I think you are making some excellent points here.

Obviously, fatigue can play a huge negative role. Even though I am fully aware of this, playing tired is one of the mistakes I make sometimes.

The effect of crowded tables is something I practically cannot avoid, unless I stop playing (which is something I am seriously considering). Most people say that crowds only slow the game. My experience has been worse than that. I may be completely wrong, and mathematically it may have nothing to do with crowded tables, but any time I push out my max bets, because the count requires it, those high cards are flying around me, and I'm getting killed with stiff hands. Plus those high counts drop so fast, and they usually do not last more than a hand, or two. Of course, I'm talking about bad 8D games, that I probably shouldn't be playing at all.

[winr_winr_chicken_dinner!]

I've definitely gotten hammered when I was tired. You might be noticing the count, but missing a lot of other stuff around you. Like, how the pit is reacting, how the dealer is shuffling, etc. If you are dead beat tired get up and get away for a while - take a power nap.

As far as lot's of people on a table... I prefer a table with 3 to 4 people on it other than me when playing shoe games, just seems like things work out better for me like that. I won't play single deck with a full table though, seems like about the time the count climbs and I raise a bet, by the time the cards get to me at third base (yea, I know, but I like it there...) it's too late. I guess the argument the other way is I get to see more cards before making a hit/stand/double/split decision though.

Soooo... Short sessions, power naps and good hydration, 6D with 3 players or 2D with 2 and I am pretty happy.

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Everyone has been kind so far. Thank you.

No I don't endorse 6:5 single deck play. Offer the thoughts simply because the six deck show next door was absolutely horrible. Had a 60% pen and full table. A real waste.

And because we often see posts here where the advice giver is being "penny wise and pound foolish". What good is the best counting system, camouflage, spreading technique etc. if the more obvious benefits of tables with few other players goes largely ignored?

And what about stress and fatigue?

In the beginning I worried that maybe I was just too close to the edge of compulsiveness. These days I realize that it was my stress and fatigue factor that was making me play the wrong tables and the wrong bets. I'd play hands with bets at only a marginal advantage due to fatigue.

The 6:5 problem is not something we can do much about except to avoid or only play heads up with a huge spread. A naive or new dealer could be a possibility here. Someone who lets me get away with a 20 -1 unit spread.

6:5 was made to deter counters and victimize ploppies. We can avoid it but the casinos will still keep carrying them anyway. Counters do not pay the casinos bills so why should they listen to us?

Especially if they know that counters avoid them.

So I look for the next best thing: A two decker with few players. Fewer players means that the dealer will often go farther into the deck. All the real goodies are located THERE.

And that could have been my third piece of usually disregarded/ignored/never mentioned advice (on blackjack forums): A single player gets a far better share of the penetration advantage. Multiple players result in only two deals per shuffle. Sometimes only one.

Play heads up and the dealer will usually go close to the halfway point. he wastes the houses time by shuffling up too much as there is a much smaller take from the single player.

[QFIT]

Originally Posted by 1357111317

I don't think CVCX supports 6:5. I I didn't see an option for it.

Sorry, CVCX only supports it if you have a CVData license also.