Math guys....

[1357111317]

I have a question that hopefully the math guys will be able to help me with.

Lets say you are backbetting on someone in a positive count. A negative EV split comes up 88 v 8 9 X, 22 33 77 v 7, 22 33 66 77 v 2 and 22 33 66 77 v 3. If you dont split the backbet and the front person does you just get to put your bet on one of the hands.

First question. If you always played behind this person and this person played perfect basic stratagy what kind of EV would you save on 6D DAS H17.

Second question. At what kinds of counts would these negative EV splits become positive EV?

Thanks.

[Sonny]

Check out the Backline Strategy sources below:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?p=21994

You can get an additional 0.2% advantage by using Wong's "sacrifice split" strategy. Grosjean's book will give you the exact critical indexes for making each play so you can potentially do better than that if you customize your strategy.

-Sonny-

[Automatic Monkey]

Originally Posted by Sonny

Check out the Backline Strategy sources below:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?p=21994

You can get an additional 0.2% advantage by using Wong's "sacrifice split" strategy. Grosjean's book will give you the exact critical indexes for making each play so you can potentially do better than that if you customize your strategy.

-Sonny-

It's very rules-dependent of course. I've never done it for H17 because I don't know a H17 store that allows it.

Most of the gain appears to come from 88 vs. 9-A. I suppose the higher the count, the more powerful the option of not splitting a back bet would be on those hands.

Here are some charts I derived- do they correlate to what has already been published?

[gibsonlp33stl]

Or as this article suggests:

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/...vengerbjfo.pdf


There can be a large number of variations to splitting if it's not assumed that you have to split for the same amount. Everywhere I play allows splits/doubes for less. Interestingly - if you have say a $50 bet out for a 33 v 9, say you're playing at a $10 table. If you could split for less with a $10 bet...you gain value. I hadn't really thought of that before. Same scenario with an 88 v 8/9/T/A. Seems like if you play smart there's a lot of positives there to make up some EV. But then again, none of this takes into effect the count at the time...so these values are for a count of zero, i'm sure if the count is 7 TC and you have some max bets out, the indices would change.

Does anyone employ these techniques successfully?

[sabre]

I have never seen a single casino that allowed splitting for less

[callipygian]

Originally Posted by 1357111317

88 v 8 9 X, 22 33 77 v 7, 22 33 66 77 v 2 and 22 33 66 77 v 3 ... At what kinds of counts would these negative EV splits become positive EV?

With the caveat that this is on an infinite deck (H17 DAS DA2 LS) ...

22 vs. 2: >+5
22 vs. 3: >+1
22 vs. 7: >+1
33 vs. 2: >+6
33 vs. 3: >+2
33 vs. 7: NEVER
66 vs. 2: >+11
66 vs. 3: >+5
77 vs. 2: >+6
77 vs. 3: >+2
77 vs. 7: >+8
88 vs. 9: NEVER
88 vs. T: NEVER
88 vs. A: NEVER

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by sabre

I have never seen a single casino that allowed splitting for less

In a backline betting situation where only one player decides to split it will be a split for less. It can also happen in situations involving coupons or scavenger plays. There are also similar opportunities to split for more.

-Sonny-

[gibsonlp33stl]

Originally Posted by sabre

I have never seen a single casino that allowed splitting for less

Maybe I'm way off on that...I thought I had seen that happen, maybe i'm just thinking of doubling...

[1357111317]

Originally Posted by callipygian

With the caveat that this is on an infinite deck (H17 DAS DA2 LS) ...

22 vs. 2: >+5
22 vs. 3: >+1
22 vs. 7: >+1
33 vs. 2: >+6
33 vs. 3: >+2
33 vs. 7: NEVER
66 vs. 2: >+11
66 vs. 3: >+5
77 vs. 2: >+6
77 vs. 3: >+2
77 vs. 7: >+8
88 vs. 9: NEVER
88 vs. T: NEVER
88 vs. A: NEVER

Are those Hi Lo?

[1357111317]

Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey

It's very rules-dependent of course. I've never done it for H17 because I don't know a H17 store that allows it.

Most of the gain appears to come from 88 vs. 9-A. I suppose the higher the count, the more powerful the option of not splitting a back bet would be on those hands.

Here are some charts I derived- do they correlate to what has already been published?

I read on one of the links that if the players backbet is 7 times more than the front bet. You can start doing splits that benefit the backlining player. That shee that you provided AM says that there are only 3 situations that the backlining player can gain an advantage if his bet is 10X greater than the front player, those are 77 v 8,9,X