A.C. -- April Casino Revenue Surprises

FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
At 2:00 p.m. on the 10th of the month the monthly A.C casino revenue report is posted.
Should the 10th fall on a weekend or holiday it is posted on the following weekday. This month:

(Dead link: http://www.njccc.gov/casinos/financia/mthrev/docs/2009/200904revenue.pdf)

Here are some of the interesting factoids gleaned from the April revenues:

Hilton:

Pai Gow Tiles "held" only 2.5% on a drop of 2 million bux.


Borgata:

The five Spanish 21 tables earned only $89,736 on a drop of $1,993,878 for a miniscule "hold" of just 4.5% !


Tropicana:

Their twelve $100.00 Slot Machines LOST $122,977 on a drop of exactly $250,500 The negative hold of -49.% is mind-boggling !


Trump Marina:

Their three Spanish 21 tables 3 LOST $17,929 on a drop of $437,795 for a hold of -4.1%

Trump Plaza:

Their six $100.00 Slot Machines LOST $ 15,899 on a drop of $635,700 to register a negative hold of -2.5%

Their twelve Craps tables won just $374,604 on a big drop of $13,627,006 for a paltry hold of just 2.7%

Meanwhile, their 58 Blackjack tables had a drop of $39.537,895. The house kept a modest $1,744,281 for a Blackjack Hold of a mere 4.4% ! THAT is noteworthy !

BUT ... This is the most shocking result of all:

Their baccarat table actually LOST an astounding $473,550
on a handle of $630,766 for an awesome negative hold of
-75.1% !






 
daddybo

daddybo

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
I'm not sure I believe all that... Sounds like they are increasing their bottom line through creative tax avoidance.. or maybe its just the house suffering from a wild swing in standard deviation. :)
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
Just as an advantage player sometimes loses, even the house can sometimes lose.
That being said, cheating / larceny I do not rule out.

In recent months I have noted a lot of weirdness, but there are always seeming oddities.

A couple of months ago I noted that Trump Plaza had almost no BJ winnings at all.
I later found out from a reliable source that a non- A.P. whale,
(with a huge credit line and suitable max bet limits to match),
accounted for the almost the entire casino loss.

I recall when Australian Billionaire Media Magnate - Kerry Packer -
won $23,500,000 [in one day] at the MGM Grand
putting the joint's BJ tables deep into the RED for the month.

He left way over $1,000,000 for the dealers.

Go to the N.J.C.C.C. website.
Review every month's revenue reports.
going as far back as you care to go.
 
S

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
A subgroup of 12 machines can easily have a losing month. All it takes is one serious jackpot at the $100 level to skew things for quite awhile.
One of my Broadway Poker machines once dealt out a Royal Flush, on a max bet. The guy doubled up and won $4,000. That represented about 12 weeks worth of profit from that machine.
 
S

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
The video poker machines you see in many bars. It's mostly a Jacks or Better game played with a Joker that only appears on the second round. You can double your initial bet if you want when you discard.
 
M

mjbballar23

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
Trump Marina:

Their three Spanish 21 tables 3 LOST $17,929 on a drop of $437,795 for a hold of -4.1%

I found this to be the most shocking. Granted its only 3 tables, the ploppies playing these games are just so ridiculously bad i cant believe these tables even have a losing day.
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#8
#8


The most likely scenario, I would imagine, is that suited triple sevens made multiple appearances.
Any game that has the high volatility created by a big bonus payoff can create odd scenarios like this - albeit on rare occasions.

 
K

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
FLASH1296 said:
Their baccarat table actually LOST an astounding $473,550 on a handle of $630,766 for an awesome negative hold of 75.1% !/QUOTE]

You do realize, I hope, this means only that they reported revenue "loss". Not necessarily that they "actually lost" money at that table for that game?

Casinos don't have the feintest clue of what was wagered. All they know is, at the end of an 8-hour shift for that table, how many chips they started with, how many chips were purchased by how much money is in the drop box, and how many chips were paid out. That's all they got.

Completely different on how an internet casino reports stuff. They know how much was wagered, how much was bought and how much was paid out. They have "RFID" chips in effect.

10 guys walk up to a table with $1K of chips in their pocket they place on the table. They each lose $250, don't color up, and the chip tray has $2500 less in it.

The next guy buys $10K and breaks even and cashes out in chips.

They have a $10K "drop" in their box and report a revenue loss of $2.5K on their financials for a -25% "hold" even though they actually won $2.5K at that table but are too stupid to know it.

Something like that I think lol.
Click to expand...
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
Re: Drop and Hold

Re: Drop and Hold

You said:

"10 guys walk up to a table with $1K of chips in their pocket they place on the table. They each lose $250, don't color up, and the chip tray has $2500 less in it.

The next guy buys $10K and breaks even and cashes out in chips.

They have a $10K "drop" in their box and report a revenue loss of $2.5K on their financials for a -25% "hold" even though they actually won $2.5K"

Chips and cash are both counted. You cannot imagine that only cash is counted. The State Auditors would have a field day with that.
The table that you described above had a total "drop" of $20,000 and "held" $2,500 equating to 12.5%.

But, of course the drop / hold will consist of a huge number of debits / credits.
Taking a few transactions out-of-context is misleading,
especially since so few people break-even at any casino game.
 
K

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
FLASH1296;133932The table that you described above had a total "[B said:
drop[/B]" of $20,000
Click to expand...
No. It had a drop of $10K.

Drop is defined as cash and other drop documents that are removed from the drop boxes at each table in exchange for chips. I'm sure you'll find that definition if you dig thru all the crap. If it don't come out of a "drop-box", it ain't included in "drop".

Obviously they can't count as "drop" a guy walking up and playing with chips from his pocket. When he purchased those chips, it was already included in that table's drop at the time of purchase.

I'm sure the State Auditors would love your method of potentially counting 1 buy-in many multiple times in the "drop" while requiring them to increase "drop" for every $5 chip that comes from someone's pocket. It almost seems, for some reason, they pay absolutely no attention when that happens.

Like you say, lots of stuff effects it. It's a pretty meaningless figure from which one can draw few conclusions as to whether the casino "actually" won or lost money at that table or game.

I don't know what can be confusing or misleading about the definition of "drop" as it is pretty clearly and specifically defined by statute and was hoping an example might help you or others understand the definition better.
 
K

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
FLASH1296 said:
Hmmm.

You may be correct about this.
Click to expand...
Then it was all worthwhile if I may have let a little sunshine in lol..

Thx for mentioning you may have changed your mind on the subject and, thereby, made me feel I may have done some good lol.

No big deal.
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
I asked a mathematician friend to comment re: this issue.

He replied:

"I’m not sure of the exact definition of hold (e.g. whether chips in bought during a different shift are counted if they can be measured – perhaps because they were counted to estimate a player win), but I think it’s normally calculated over the course of a shift rather than over shorter time periods which will help things average out. In theory, if chips move among the tables, the table hold will be distorted for single shift calculations, but in practice I’m sure that casinos are aware of big chips that move (assuming their formula allows them to be considered) and the small chips have little impact on the hold."
 
I

iwantblackjack

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
do casino credit markers' count in the holds and all? i ask, cause i heard (dont know if true) that casinos cant pay state taxes on slots or table games with markers; and nor is it included in the casino's revenue or income until paid or written off.
 
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