CSM's at Crown

[Howie]

Hey all

I was at Crown the other night, and couldnt get a game on the regular shoe tables..

So i played at a CSM..

But, I know they arnt beatable.. but what would you say about this..

They deal one deck (roughly) out of the machine.. And there are 6 decks in the CSM itself.. Once theres roughly a deck out, they place it back in and away we go again.. Not sure if this is the way they always play them..

Anyways..

I was keeping a running count on the one deck that came out.. when it was really high, id raise my bets as normal.. AND I WON.. I literally cleaned up haha.

Is this luck or can it be done.

For the record.. I am not going to be playing them again, like I said, I was just strolling thru, couldnt find a seat on a shoe game so I played this pretty much for fun.

The way I see it its now Howie-1, CSM's-0

And id like to keep it this way haha..

But is keeping a running count on that FIRST deck a way to play them.. If there is a way..

And by law there must be 6 full decks.. Whos to say that Crown dont put lots of low cards in these machines.. As we never see whats in there.. Knowing Crown I wouldnt put it past them..

Thanks

Howie

[RingyDingy]

Several things Howie.

Yes it was luck/variance. Don't get sucked into the gamblers fallacy about your win, it was nothing more than positive variance.

You can count them all you like, but it wont make any difference if they at any point put that deck back in again, which they do, and every dealer is different, most average around about a deck or 1.5 decks.

If there is the equivalent of a deck out worth of cards, thats just like playing a 6 deck game with 17% Pen.

Crown have a history of short shifting cards in their games, they have had a lot of examples of it happening and have been fined many times, however they would not do it intentionally(IMHO).

I doubt a One 2 Six would know the total number of cards it contains and whats out in play (someone please correct me).

Personally your wasting your time, effort and money playing these things, they will get you in the long run, there are opportunities at crown, you just gotta work hard.

cheers

Ringy.

[Pro21]

Originally Posted by RingyDingy

Crown have a history of short shifting cards in their games, they have had a lot of examples of it happening and have been fined many times, however they would not do it intentionally(IMHO).

There are a lot of examples but you don't think it is intentional??? Please explain how this could happen unintentionally.

[Katweezel]

Originally Posted by Pro21

There are a lot of examples but you don't think it is intentional??? Please explain how this could happen unintentionally.

Yeah, right Pro. Ringy may have a connection, but the big point to bear in mind is that this Crown organization has a history that clearly illustrates their casino management practices have never held integrity and transparency high on their priority list. And this was when Kerry Packer was the head honcho. When he finally went to the big casino in the sky, his son James took the reins, and pop had already taught him everything he knew. Enough said.

So what's in their 126 beasts... all the cards? Well, I haven't been there for a while but when I was going there, I can't ever remember a state government inspector checking one to count the decks, and that is something they are supposed to regularly do. But GMen don't get a great wage, now do they... Knowing something of Crown's sordid, unwholesome casino-games history, I would not be at all surprised if a few 10s and Aces were missing, particularly from the $25 min machines. In any case, that would be only one of their little tricks. I reckon in the boardroom there, on the wall is a plaque which says: Remember men, "THE PUBLIC IS AN IDIOT"

[RingyDingy]

pretty serious thing to be thrown around, and here's why i think, and remember its only my personal opinion here.

1) its a very serious charge intentionally tampering with a casino wagering game, and carries potential jail time for the offender.

2) the existing cases that i know of, have resulted in clear evidence that shows while crown was negligent and certainly let it go on longer than it should, they did not instigate intentional tampering - i.e. a drunk player stole a card once, the tape showed it but the fact that the card was missing for over 24 hours was not picked up. - A poker dealer could not count and the next dealer didnt bother to do his count, until the third dealer spotted it. - A poker shuffling machine ate a card, came up red on the indicator the pit critter counted cards, and said "play on" knowing it wasnt right (he got the sack for it)

3) Crowns employee culture. crown staff in an effort to get ahead would rat in thier colleagues at every possible opportunity, if this were to come from the top or whatever people would be exposed with gay abandon.

4) Crown employees have NOTHING to gain from doing it, most of them could not care less.

I dislike crown as much as the next guy, but to seriously suggest that they intentionally short shift card games, thats a lil hard to swallow, yes they couldnt give a crap about us, not one little bit, and they are attriciously poor at customer management, i still think as a whole the vic gaming comission is all over them like a cheap suit. hence why my humble opinion is the way it is.

[Katweezel]

Originally Posted by RingyDingy

pretty serious thing to be thrown around, and here's why i think, and remember its only my personal opinion here.

1) its a very serious charge intentionally tampering with a casino wagering game, and carries potential jail time for the offender.

2) the existing cases that i know of, have resulted in clear evidence that shows while crown was negligent and certainly let it go on longer than it should, they did not instigate intentional tampering - i.e. a drunk player stole a card once, the tape showed it but the fact that the card was missing for over 24 hours was not picked up. - A poker dealer could not count and the next dealer didnt bother to do his count, until the third dealer spotted it. - A poker shuffling machine ate a card, came up red on the indicator the pit critter counted cards, and said "play on" knowing it wasnt right (he got the sack for it)

3) Crowns employee culture. crown staff in an effort to get ahead would rat in thier colleagues at every possible opportunity, if this were to come from the top or whatever people would be exposed with gay abandon.

4) Crown employees have NOTHING to gain from doing it, most of them could not care less.

I dislike crown as much as the next guy, but to seriously suggest that they intentionally short shift card games, thats a lil hard to swallow, yes they couldnt give a crap about us, not one little bit, and they are attriciously poor at customer management, i still think as a whole the vic gaming comission is all over them like a cheap suit. hence why my humble opinion is the way it is.

Ringy, What we do know is that since Pop Packer's boy took over, things have gone further South for casino patrons. Introduction of 00 roulette, hit soft 17 and crummy 6:5 & 'sports blackjack' rules are just 4 examples. We need to remember that this Packer organization has been in bed with the state government for more than 20 years already, and together in cahoots, these two varmints have been shamelessly plundering the 'stupid' gambling public of the state of Victoria. There must be a large number of stupid gambling donkeys in a city of 4 million. If you run the only casino in town, that gives you a certain monopolistic right to do what you think is best for everyone concerned. Especially your concerns. Human nature.

They have been scratching each others' backs for so long now, they know in advance when an itch needs scratching on the other. As for "serious charges" concerning tampering, yeah right mate. There are laws in effect to give drunk cardstealers, cappers, whatever kind of cheat they can catch, and get rid of them up the river for a while. But when it comes to the real stuff, one varmint wrote the rules for the other varmint's game. The only winners there will always be two varmints. Bet your bankroll on em winning. They both need to protect each others' winning practices.

And those winning practices need to be protected, by people you can trust. Trusted people get well paid... You seen anyone counting the cards in a 126 lately? When was the last time? Next visit, just for a bit of fun ask the pb near a $25 CSM to stop the game. Tell him you wanna exercise your right to look inside the damn thing, because you just don't trust em. Tell him you wanna check to see if all the Aces are there. Try to keep a straight face while you ask... See if you can get his reaction on someone else's hidden mobile phone camera, with your wires picking up the conversation. That encounter would make great YouTube. Good luck mate.

[Pro21]

The cases Ringy mentions are far different than a bunch of 10s and aces missing from a shoe. Have there been cases where a shoe was missing multiple 10s and aces?

[RingyDingy]

Katz, your right to a point, i dont trust them jive assed turkies as far as i can throw them. yes they are interested in the almighty dollar, and only the almighty dollar, but there is a line in the sand.

Personally i have NEVER seen a VGC staff member halt a game and count cards to ensure accurate decks, mostly the VGC are back rooming crown and doing post audits.

Also which is even more strange a LOT of the times crown has come up short in card counts is because crown itself reported doing so (ah crap i cant believe i am defending crown) which in turn gets a fine for doing so.

I personally (which doesnt mean it didnt happend more) know of only one instance where multiple favourable cards were removed from a BJ table, where crown had a pontoon cardset on a BJ table. And im not sure if that was even one of the many offences picked up by the VGC.

I wonder what crown would say to this: "Hi there , ive been counting your cards all afternoon, and i think this table here is short at least an ace and a ten, can you lay all the cards out for me please?"

facts remain people make mistakes all the time, and the mind numbing drones that crown employs make them too, then there is the mind numbing supervisor drones who too make mistakes, and its usually when the two are added together that the issue gets out of hand.

Im sorry i missed the BJ chat last week, im sure our guest would have been able to have shed a lot of light on this very topic.

Cheers

Ringy.

[Katweezel]

An example of Crown casino corporate practices... (from a poker website)

Default Crown Casino Melbourne champs mail out deceiving...
"When Crown poker room first opened I was sent an invitation to come and play. I was given a players rate to stay in the Crown Towers. I no longer recall how much but it was quite reasonable. I checked in, put my bags in the room and went to the poker room. About 25 minutes later some members of casino management sought me out in the poker room and told me that as I was a " professional casino gambler" they were not going to give me the players rate at the hotel.

Despite the fact that I had been sent an invitation and offered this rate and checked in at this rate they felt that because they wore suits they were entitled to breach numerous laws on fraud, and retroactively add $400 per night to my hotel room. I refused to pay this and went to my room and removed my bags. Despite having only been in the room two hours and only departing because they had changed the rate on me, they still insisted on charging me for one nights stay.

The moral of this story is that casinos are slimy and ruthless and so will be any hotel connected with one. In fact hotels get away with many low acts that would be illegal in almost any other area. Does no one else think it a disgrace that a hotel has telephone charge at the maximum possible for phone calls and then charges the customers a surcharge (anything from 200% to 500%). Nowhere in the room will you find any warning about the surcharge or how large it might be.

Nobody should be paying more than $2.50 for a two hour interstate call but a hotel will bill you a weeks pay for that call. Crown Towers understating the cost of a weeks stay by $80 is probably not even considered unethical by them. If you stay there, check your credit card statement for a few months and see if they suddenly decide you ate more from the mini bar than you reported and charged your card without telling you"...

[StudiodeKadent]

Originally Posted by Howie

Hey all

I was at Crown the other night, and couldnt get a game on the regular shoe tables..

So i played at a CSM..

But, I know they arnt beatable.. but what would you say about this..

They deal one deck (roughly) out of the machine.. And there are 6 decks in the CSM itself.. Once theres roughly a deck out, they place it back in and away we go again.. Not sure if this is the way they always play them..

Anyways..

I was keeping a running count on the one deck that came out.. when it was really high, id raise my bets as normal.. AND I WON.. I literally cleaned up haha.

Is this luck or can it be done.

For the record.. I am not going to be playing them again, like I said, I was just strolling thru, couldnt find a seat on a shoe game so I played this pretty much for fun.

The way I see it its now Howie-1, CSM's-0

The previous posters are right, this is equivalent to a 6 deck shoe game with 17% penetration. You can technically count against this (i.e. the trials are still dependent), but the penetration is simply too low for you to be able to counterract Crown's huge house edges.

However, they use the same system (put the cards back in only after 1 deck has been played) at the Wynn Macau and the house edges there are 0.08%. This is my own speculation and I haven't tried it out yet, but if you counted against this, you could possibly nullify the house edge there (because its so low to begin with). However, at Crown, you have no hope.