Where should I start?

I have been practicing counting for a while now, and my results from mock games (with 6 decks and Lego as chips) are very good, however, I have never counted in a casino.
I'll be 18 soon, so a plethora of casino's will be available to me, but, I don't know where to start.

There is a small place nearby down an alley which I thought would be a good place to start, but when I rang to ask questions, it seemed dodgy. The man's voice was slurred and didn't seem to know what I was talking about, and kept asking 'Who am I speaking ta?"; he didn't seem to realize I was talking about the casino for a while, and even when he did, his answers weren't straight.

Should I risk counting in such a place or just go to a better recognized establishment?


- Thanks in advance, Martin

Well, I'm also new but I think that could be a good idea - you hone your skills there and then once you feel confident enough go smash the bigger casinos. Also, if you get barred from there it won't be such a big deal

What country are you in? I would not recommend the back alley casino. Cheating is rare, but when it does happen it is more likely in one of these illegal underground clubs. I would stick with the well-advertised, brightly lit casinos.

I'm in Ireland, I think that would be a good idea. Especially considering the small size of the town, I wouldn't want to end up sitting in an empty room with just me and some drunk guy getting angry.

If it's some unlicensed gambling den, don't be silly. You will get the $#it beaten out of you if they suss on to the fact that you're being smart. The people who run places like this aren't just going to smile as you walk away with their money and say "have a nice day".

Practice until you're 18, then pop over to the UK and visit a University town. There'll be loads of kids your age playing and you'll have no problems blending in. I'm told you can get a Ryanair flight from Dublin or Shannon for around a tenner return?

Good luck.

True, I was thinking of going to the UK (I was born and lived there, only came here about 3 years ago) as I have a place to stay and know my way around London a fair bit.
There are some respectable places in Dublin, but from the pictures I have seen, they look to be quiet and have small gaming areas, don't want everyone breathing down my the back of my neck.
I'll probably try London, our even outer London soon, maybe Halloween time.
Thanks for advice!

The games in the uk are not great, they are hard to beat, conditions are poor in most places. The spread you need to beat the game with the rules they have will be large and therefore fluctuations will be high. I suspect you don't have much of a bankroll and even if you did, with the experience you have it is unlikely that you will win.

I think you should finish your education and forget about blackjack.

Traveller, a rather pessimistic summary I think. Blazin22 said something even more severe recently when he described the ENHC-UK ruleset as a "Trash game".

Depends of course on what you're comparing it with. If you're comparing it with the SD/DD 3:2 games that can be found in the States, it probably is. But if you're a low stakes player (£5/$10 per unit) and all you can find in the States is a six decker with H17, then there probably isn't a lot in it. I agree that to get a reasonable return you'll need a 1-16+ spread, but if everything on these boards is to be believed whereas you can do that without any hassle in the UK even with a poorer ruleset in the States it'll put a flag up.

Now, before Blazin goes off again, taking this view doesn't make me the marketing rep for the UK table games industry, I make it to keep things in perspective. Unless you're playing for thousands of hours, with a £20+ unit bet, the extra 0.11% HE isn't really going to make too much difference. If you're a pro AP playing 30-40 hours a week at £20+ then yes - book a flight to the States. I wonder how many people actually play BJ for the specific purpose of making or topping up a living in the UK (having an expectation of winning £5K+pa)? I bet you wouldn't need more than a couple of 'phone boxes to put them all in. For recreational players if you accept that until someone has 5,000-10,000 hands plus under their belt, the variance in the game leaves it all a gamble anyway, then the finer points of the "good game / bad game" arguements (and I include the 0.11% extra HE in this) become somewhat irrelevent.

My advice (for what it's worth) to Martinstatic would be to come to the UK and enjoy himself playing BJ, counting for the crack. Provided he's under no illusions about walking away with a bundle more than he came with, and has a handle on his RoR, he won't go home disappointed. I beg to differ in that I think he should complete his education and enjoy playing BJ with money he can afford to lose. His call of course.

Hi Newb, nice to see you again, long time no chat.

You said it yourself in the first paragraph above. There are not many players making a living in the uk because it is so tough. Martinstatic does not want to play recreationally he wants to try to make it as a pro and it just isn't likely to happen on the UK games.

I was not trashing the uk games i was merely pointing out to 'M' that it is just not worth the effort and with his experience he is more likely to get burned. Of course the games is beatable but he does not have anywhere near enough experience not only tactically but also mentally, he will crumble at the first sign of a down swing.

Hence my advice to go study.

Speaking from personal experience i can say for a fact that if you know what you are doing you can get away with a hell of a lot more than a 1-16 spread in the UK. I seem to remember playing a 1-30 possibly more a few years back.
For counting the games aren't very good, but there are a lot of other opportunities if you know what you are doing. The main problem is not the conditions of the games but rather the ID requirements of the casinos. This is the real barrier between pro players and the UK. Barred in one = barred in all with no chance of playing as you have to produce your members card to get in.

RJT.

I don't see how you gather that I want to "make it as a pro"(?);
It's 100% recreational for me, I don't see how any 17 year old could possibly make it as a pro. (Unless they grew up in a casino)

As for crumbling at the first sign of a down swing, that's not true. I have alot of patience and always look at things from a logical point of view, unlike others who will always try to chase their losses.

Anyway, despite being in Europe, I hear that Ireland does use American rules in alot of places, I'll look into that when I can.
As for studies, Blackjack and education don't really cross eachother in my timetables, as I tend to get about 5 - 7 hours sleep each night; this gives me study time and a few hours a night for Blackjack. Also I'm exempt from Irish as a subject due to being from England, which gives me a few more hours (about 3hrs 20mins) each week for studies.

Unlicensed Irish Casinos

I've spoken to APs who played in unlicensed Irish casinos. They told me the worst thing that happened to them was a manager came up to them after a few hours and told them that if they won anymore money that he wouldn't be willing to cash their chips.

Up to you what you make of that information.

I disagree. There are number of companies that run countable casinos in the UK. If you barred from one company you can still go the others. What's more, it's not necessarily the case that if you get banned from one casino (as a counter) you won't be able to go to any of the other casinos owned by that particular company. Strange but true.

There are also now casinos in the UK that you can walk straight into without needing a membership card/ID.

I heard that too, my dad always went to casino's (still does I assume) in Picadilly Circus around the Empire area, and he never had any membership; then again, this was in the early to mid 90's, some might have changed.

The membership rules, and particularly the 24hr cool off period, have been relaxed greatly. You don't need to join any casino as a member now, although you will still need to show ID and have your photo taken to walk in. If you cash out more than a grand you'll need to produce ID again for the paperwork. In order not to draw attention though you will need a good reason not become a member though if you go back to the same place repeatedly. Why wouldn't anyone want the membership benefits?

I think on the subject of bering barred it may be a case of people referring to different things. I suspect simply being asked to leave by the DM for being roudy, having had too much to drink etc where they can't be bothered to go through the entrance video to ID you is one thing, and will only be a local problem for as long as memories last, if at all. Getting the "your membership is hereby terminated with immediate effect" (or however it's written) letter is more significant as it will mean you're toast in all of the casinos of that group. And I'm cycnical enough to believe that, DPA or not, all of the different casino groups will exchange information on "undesirable" patrons - in the same way that race tracks or local Pubwatch scheme members do. Get your membership zapped in the UK and you might as well look for a new hobby or source of income. Puts the general advice from some of our US cousins of "just keep going 'till you get busted" into perspective.

As to patronising an unlicensed gambling den, I think it's tempting providence. It may be an independent enterprise run by some jovial Del Trotter type, who treats his wins and losses as a matter of fact (like any legitimate bookie), but more likely it'll be part of something run by occupational gangsters - people who have lots of business interests, deal largely in cash and who don't have their accountant put everything on their tax return each year. Generally people to be avoided by us, law-abiding, hard working, tax-paying types. As a copper once said to me . . . organised crime will never be a major problem in your life as long as you don't get involved with it, and don't associate with people who do - don't go where they go, do business with them, play golf with them, socialise with them, allow them to do you favours - or let your wife do any of these with their wives. Sound advice.

In one of the gala in Glasgow which am a member of but i also do walk in without scanning my card at all.

And you better be patient with your down swing, we took a £900 down swing, and it took us 36 hours to get that back and that was without sleeping. We simply just couldn't walk away.

I would personally, go into a casino experenice the enviroment and see how you feel about it!

Also what is your bank roll?

Ming