Why do so few people count in the UK?

[10JQKA]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post but I have been following the forum for several weeks. I see a massive number of players from around the world here but comparitively few from the UK considering its ease.

A relative of mine is training to be a dealer, in the part of his course about "cheating" someone bought up card counting and the dealers are taught, (and I quote) "Card counting is not a threat, we are not even sure it gives a player an advantage" they were then told its not something casino's are looking out for over here.

Also, my local casino's all play 6D 80% pen S17 DAS

In addition to that, I have worked out there are over 100 casino's within a 90 minute drive of me.

So back to the thread title...why do so few people count? There must be something I am missing as far as I can see we have some really great rules, lots of casino's and nobody even appears to be looking for us.


I have been practising a lot, I know BS like it is written on the back of my eye lids, I can count a deck in 19 seconds, 2D in 45sec and I have about a dozen indices memorized. I am currently working on putting them all together before I set foot in a casino using CVBJ.

Thanks guys

[newb99]

Over 100 casinos within 90 minutes drive? It must be North London somewhere then, giving you access to further north on the M1? But do bear in mind that some casinos will use a CSM on their table games. And also bear in mind that nearly all of the houses of chance outside of London are owned by a handful of organisations - so if they ever do decide to terminate your membership for whatever reason, you'll be toast at a lot of places.

Do let us know how you get on with your first visit.

Good luck.

[ihate17]

The percentage of card counters in the U.S. is also extremely miniscule. Where in the U.K., so many games are dealt from CSM's it is understandable but in the U.S., where the CSM is only found on the lowest stake tables, it is amazing how few cardcounters there are.
It just follows that people are basically lazy and even most who take the time to learn BS and counting never follow up to the point where they become winning counters.
Casino paranoia about cardcounters is totally ridiculous with the exception of real high rollers and well financed teams. The rest of the tiny counter universe is totally insignificant.

ihate17

[10JQKA]

Thanks for the input guys.

Newb99, actually relatively midlands, within 90mins of London and Sheffield south and north and within 90mins of the welsh border and the norfolk cost west and east. Pretty much in the middle of all the major cities in england.

I don't know of many casino's in my two nearest cities, 15mins and 30mins away that use CSM (yet).

I will be starting out on a very small bankroll, I am a very cautious person, most likely I will start with a bankroll that will just be playing on the lowest stakes tables, after several months if I am confident I have it mastered I will consider increasing.

I have started a new hobby, if I become an expert at it who knows maybe one day it will become a part time job or a career but lets just start with fun

[London Colin]

Originally Posted by 10JQKA

So back to the thread title...why do so few people count? There must be something I am missing as far as I can see we have some really great rules

The rules are not that great. They recently improved slightly, with the switch from D9 to DOA, but the lack of insurance and surrender are still the big problem.

In Blackbelt in Blackjack, the Snyder Profit Index is presented as a rough way to evaluate games, by giving a +ve or -ve score to various attributes of the game, and totalling them up. The final scores are rated as follows -

Above 50: a winner
0 -50: table-hop only
Below 0: a time waster

And table hopping isn't really practical in the UK because there tend to be only a couple of tables available in a typical casino.

With 80% penetration, and playing heads-up against the dealer, you need a bet spread of 1-12 to reach an overall profit index of just 48.

With 2-4 players at the table, it falls to 36.

Insurance(20) and late surrender(6) would add a whopping 26 to the above totals!

[Mr. T]

Why do so few people count in the UK?

Because casinos everywhere else in the world outside the US use the CSM.

In the US the shoe game is offered mostly only in LAS and AC and not in the numerous Indian casinos.

It is the legend in the US that BJ is beatable with card counting as it was first glamourised by Thorpe in AC in the 60's. I presume that card counting is still not a problem in the US as the casinos there still use the shoe game in some places. It is just a matter of economics that the CSM is so much more productive in terms of the number of rounds per hour compared to the shoe game.

[Blue Efficacy]

Originally Posted by Mr. T

Why do so few people count in the UK?

In the US the shoe game is offered mostly only in LAS and AC and not in the numerous Indian casinos.

I beg to differ.

[London Colin]

Originally Posted by Mr. T

Why do so few people count in the UK?

Because casinos everywhere else in the world outside the US use the CSM.

I have visited a grand total of eleven casinos in the UK. Of those, only one used CSMs, and even that one had a couple of shoe games available, in addition to the CSMs.

[Canceler]

Originally Posted by Blue Efficacy

I beg to differ.

Well, yeah, me too. I've played in four different Native American casinos, and I've never seen a CSM in my life.

[Blue Efficacy]

Originally Posted by Canceler

Well, yeah, me too. I've played in four different Native American casinos, and I've never seen a CSM in my life.

As long as you play in your home state you never will. Minnesota's gambling compacts state that all BJ must be dealt from shoes. So CSMs will never be present. The local Indians are in no hurry to renegotiate those compacts.

Little known fact about MN, hand dealt games are actually allowed, but require 1 pit critter per hand dealt table.