Zman's article on detection of an holecarder

I know, it's somewhat paranoid to think any ID data picked up by the cookies would ever be matched against players club databases. Most people probably don't have their real name associated with their PC anyway.

Zman's article on detection of an holecarder

In the article below, Zman attempted to teach AP-catchers how to detect an holecarder. Here are his nuts and bolts of holecarder-detection:

A player is an holecarder when
1) he is relatively not known to the shop,
2) he's winning big, and
3) he plays big only with a specific dealer, i.e., playing big with the Regular, not the Relief.

What do you guys think? Zman wants your feedbacks so that he can fine tune his nuts and bolts:grin:. His AOL email address can be found in his article.

http://www.worldgameprotection.com/archive/2009-11/casino-ology.pdf
The link is provided by (the name is removed to preserve anonymity).

Would a joint that does not take the trouble to properly train their dealers in how to avoid flashing their hole card be that interested in rules of thumb for ID-ing hole-carders? Detection is the "second" line of defense. Proper training is the first and primary line of defense. Do the first, and the second is hardly worth the effort. Does anyone disagree?

I agree with your opinion.

But the thing is,in some casinos,dealers turnover rate is so high,they pretty much just pick people up on the street,and woolaa,there is your dealer:grin:

Detection is the "second" line of defense. Proper training is the first and primary line of defense. Do the first, and the second is hardly worth the effort. Does anyone disagree?

I agree, but it's not that simple. The problem is that the ability to train a dealer not to expose his holecard requires the ability to spot a flashing dealer's holecard. If you're not a good spotter, how can you be a good trainer? And even if the dealers are trained properly, what's to stop them from getting lazy or developing bad habits during their careers? You would need experienced spotters to both train the dealers and to supervise them. Where are you going to find that many experienced holecarders? And why would they be willing to fix the dealers they are making a living off of?

The ability to spot a holecarding player is often much easier than spotting a holecarding dealer, hence the importance of detection. You can teach a person to spot a holecard player much faster and more reliably than you can teach them to spot holecards.

That brings us to the final problem: training the trainers! Zender is in a tricky business. He is in the business of information. People call him because he has information and experience that they need. People pay for his workshops because they need that information to do their jobs. As soon as he gives away all of his information, he has put himself out of business. If everybody knows how to detect a holecard player then he won't be getting calls about that anymore. Information like that tends to spread very quickly so most people realize the value of keeping it concealed from public sources. Everyone is trying to make money using that information - the casinos, the casino employees, the casino contractors, the APs - but none of them want to give up any of their best information because it is how they derive their value. The difference is that a general lack of information hurts the casino industry greatly while it benefits the AP community greatly. You have an inverse relationship that naturally favors the APs, but my personal opinions on this is beyond the scope of this discussion.

-Sonny-

I think back to the card counting scene in Rain Man. The eye-in-the-sky lists off "he is not catching the hole card" when he is trying to figure out what the brothers are doing.

However fiction, the eye should be able to "spot" a hole carding dealer. Even Grosjean says how to spot a holecarder without looking at the card. That said I am sure there are critters that can't spot a dealer just as there are players that can't see it.

I am sure it is a shock and betrayal to dealers and critters alike when they get hit by a hole carder team. Big players who win are alot of fun for everyone, especially when they will be making wild plays that are consistent with holecarding. If you cannot figure out what is going on you the pit just goes with it until the inevitable happens. It only takes one PC to know how to spot a hole carding dealer.

EDIT
And...
I holeheartedly disagree with Zender's method of spotting a holecarder.

Paraphrased in first post of this thread

As you label surveillance departments inept for their inability to instantly pick off the HC player, keep in mind that card counters don't pick it off either. I have played on at least three occasions with card counters at our table, and at least three other occasions with card counters on the adjacent table. We are obviously aware of the tells of our play, and can lay cover to minimize those tells, and mimic the lucky civilian to the greatest extent possible. And also, there is the magician's ultimate method to mask a trick, and I presume you know what that is. If not, ask in a chat sometime.

Feel free to change my post to "pick off the HC dealer" and the rest of my statement still stands. There are reasons that what u say is easier said than done.

(If a card is flashed in the forest, and no wise guy is there to see it, does it cost a dime?)

"I admit I am not a hole card expert, but ..."

You should stop right there. Now, I AM a hole-card expert, and while this is not a topic I will get into any further, I will say that though there is some truth to what you say, there are more things in casino and earth, Aslan, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

(And, no, I am not talking about a dealer who deliberately flashes the hole card.)