Dangerous intuition in BJ SWITCH.

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#1
My buddy (mathematician) and I were discussing BJ Switch.
Ten minutes later he sent me the following email:


"Here’s a quick test (from hands I dealt out to myself) to see if you can trust your intuition on switching.
Try to make the right decision and then try to estimate how much equity gain/loss is involved"


A) Dealer shows a 6:


10, 8 / 9, 10


B) Dealer shows a 10:


10, 8 / 9, 10


C) Dealer shows a 5


A, 8 / 2, 9


D) Dealer shows a 10


A, 8 / 2, 9



SEE BELOW: after jotting down your answers:










A) switching is right by 0.0044

B) switching is right by 0.2471

C) switching is right by 0.1289

D) switching is right by 0.3952


If you thought that the decisions involving a 10 were close (when both involved huge equity),
that suggests that relying on intuition is very dangerous.


Five minutes later I receive the following:

"Here is a very interesting choice."

2, A / 9, 10

Try it with dealer up cards of 5, 7 and 10.

. . .

"2,A / 9,10 is the most interesting choice I’ve run into so far. The equity differences are generally large (the fastest way to calculate them is with http://www.beatingbonuses.com/bjscalc.htm). The most important non-switch is against a 7 (switching loses 16.56%). The most important switch is against a 10 (gaining 22.08%)."

See below:

Against the 5 do not switch.
Against the Face you do switch.
Incidentally the dealer 7 acts like a "magnified" 5


The key to making this decision correctly is knowing that the equity swing from <upcard>+10 to <upcard>+11 against a 7, 8 or 9 (and from 19 to 20 against a 10) is approximately 0.50.
That matters because you’re intentionally mangling the other hand (2,A to 12 is a negative swing in the vicinity of 0.3 – ranging from .25 to .33 depending on the upcard), so it’s only worth it if the gain to the upgraded hand is very large, which it won’t be against a dealer 2-8.


 

SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
#5
FLASH1296 said:
SystemsTrader - NO, switching is correct by 0.0044



18 v 6 = .1315
19 v 6 = .3618
totals .4933

switched
17 v 6 = -.0984
20 v 6 = .5873
totals .4889

Sticking with the original hands is better by .0044
Maybe you used different rules. I used Playtec.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#10
FLASH1296 said:
You used Playtec.
I never have.
As it said in my original post:
http://www.beatingbonuses.com/bjscalc.htm)
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Hi Flash
If you have never played Playtech, why are you using a calculator that seems to quite likely be designed for the Playtech game? After all, it is on a "bonus" website seemingly intended for internet play?

So, when you told Daddybo that it was BS-only for 8 decks how did you know how many decks and what set of rules the calculator is even using?

Just trying to say that maybe different rules for BJS might make a bunch of changes to hit/switch decisions, BS too, etc so, in case you are using that calculator for your non-Playtech real-life play, take it with a grain of salt at least.

No big deal - I have never played BJS except with Playtech software lol.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#11
SystemsTrader said:
Ok I tried out your link and it also says the correct decision is not to switch.
Hi SystemsTrader
Where did you get your EVs from a couple or so posts above? Maybe the Wiz site?
Just asking becasue my Playtech calculator didn't agree with Flash's cited calculator yet you seem to agree with it.

I have noticed the Wiz changed his Ev tables from what they used to be so perhaps we are using different sets of tables?

If so, does anyone know if Playtech changed a rule at some point necessitating a change in EV tables?

Just curious.
 
#13
Kasi said:
Hi SystemsTrader
Where did you get your EVs from a couple or so posts above? Maybe the Wiz site?
Just asking becasue my Playtech calculator didn't agree with Flash's cited calculator yet you seem to agree with it.

I have noticed the Wiz changed his Ev tables from what they used to be so perhaps we are using different sets of tables?

If so, does anyone know if Playtech changed a rule at some point necessitating a change in EV tables?

Just curious.
Yes. Playtech originally dealt the game as a European no-hole game, got greedy, without realizing that was a very good game for the player! You can switch to a natural and win before the dealer checked for BJ. Of course you had to play differently against a 10 or ace.

They changed that rule after a whole bunch of us hammered the game.
 

ycming

Well-Known Member
#14
So a BJS with no european style (no hole card) is great for the player?

We have a casino here which offer the game!

What would the edge be/score ? (with coutning hi-lo)

Thanks
Ming
 

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#15
For a 6-deck shoe, the OTT HE is around 0.20% makes it the best game in the house if it's offered although that depends on making the perfect play decisions every time. The effect of additional 10/As is an interesting conundrum to analyse, bearing in mind that naturals only pay even money and the push-22 rule.

Just like with regular BJ I would think the house makes the majority of it's money from poor playing decisions - some reckon poor play could push the HE up to around 2.5%-3%.
 

duanedibley

Well-Known Member
#16
For anyone who hasn't seen Arnold Snyder's rules of thumb for switching, see here: http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/blackjackswitchbasicstrategy.htm

Here is how they do for Flash's examples (Hand: Switch recommended?, Right/Wrong?, EV-diff)

T, 8 / 9, T vs 6: N, Right, .0044
T, 8 / 9, T vs T: Y, Right, .2471
A, 8 / 2, 9 vs 5: Y, Right, .1289
A, 8 / 2, 9 vs T: N, Wrong, .3942
2, A / 9, T vs 5: Y, Wrong, .0642
2, A / 9, T vs 7: No recommendation, .1656
2, A / 9, T vs T: Y, Right, .2208
 
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