Back-count vs playing heads-up

ArcticInferno

Well-Known Member
#1
All the books say that counters prefer to play heads-up alone against the dealer,
to play more hands per hour and extract the maximum benefit from high counts.
However, at the same time, the same books say that back-counting (Wonging) should
be an integral part of the playing strategy.
I see the pros and cons of both.
Back-counting certainly reduced the playing rate, but that's compensated by
playing at only optimum counts.
Playing heads-up allows you to play more hands per hour, but you must play
through low counts.
Naturally, you're allowed to "Wong-out", or leave the table, while playing
heads-up.
Now,... which is better.
In Atlantic City where mid-shoe entry is prohibited, you have no choice.
But what about Las Vegas?
Which is better? Back-counting, or playing heads-up?
Which method do most of you use?
 

Deathclutch

Well-Known Member
#2
Personally I play in smaller places so heads up is easier for me to pull off rather than to Wong out only to have to come right back.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#3
ArcticInferno said:
All the books say that counters prefer to play heads-up alone against the dealer,
to play more hands per hour and extract the maximum benefit from high counts.
However, at the same time, the same books say that back-counting (Wonging) should
be an integral part of the playing strategy.
I see the pros and cons of both.
Back-counting certainly reduced the playing rate, but that's compensated by
playing at only optimum counts.
Playing heads-up allows you to play more hands per hour, but you must play
through low counts.
Naturally, you're allowed to "Wong-out", or leave the table, while playing
heads-up.
Now,... which is better.
In Atlantic City where mid-shoe entry is prohibited, you have no choice.
But what about Las Vegas?
Which is better? Back-counting, or playing heads-up?
Which method do most of you use?
I will back count games when I have the opportunity, which for the most part isn't AC, but the majority of time I play off the top of a shoe and wong out of negative counts. It's kind of a compromise approach for me.
 

chichow

Well-Known Member
#4
In my order of preference for play, I like

Vegas

then Indian Casinos

then Atlantic City

--
Personally, I do better in Vegas.
Vegas has pretty decent games so the majority of the time I will Wong.
To a small extent, I might start back-counting a small set of very juicy games before moving on to Wonging.
I also feel that Vegas has decent games that are walkable vs. Atlantic City

Then there are the Indian Casinos around the country.
They offer a better game I think than Vegas, but in general, the limits are lower. And you can't just walk out to another casino and be at another casino's table in less than 15 minutes.

Lastly, there is Atlantic City.
I don't do that great in AC but that was I think from playing marginal games and trying to play all. So now I pretty much refuse to play much in AC or if I do play it is with back-counting or wonging.

YMMW
 

matt21

Well-Known Member
#5
ArcticInferno said:
Now,... which is better.
In Atlantic City where mid-shoe entry is prohibited, you have no choice.
But what about Las Vegas?
Which is better? Back-counting, or playing heads-up?
Which method do most of you use?
i always approach questions like this from a mathematical perspective.

With QFIT's CVD you would be able to run simulations for both scenarios and would allow yourself to compare playing fewer hands per hour with only good counts to a play-all heads-up approach.
so my recommendation is to run simulations and compare the results objectively.

Once you ahve the results you also have to take into account heat implications for each approach.
 

prankster

Well-Known Member
#6
I like to backcount if it's possible to do so without being obvious. Where's the downside? You're sitting down only to positive situations and betting zero,repeat zero in negative situations. It's alot more fun to watch ploppys bet and lose when the count is low than to watch yourself do so. Good cards!:joker:
 

politcat

Well-Known Member
#8
chichow said:
Then there are the Indian Casinos around the country.
They offer a better game I think than Vegas, but in general, the limits are lower. And you can't just walk out to another casino and be at another casino's table in less than 15 minutes.
have you been to Hard Rock Tampa?
 
#9
Arctic

ArcticInferno said:
All the books say that counters prefer to play heads-up alone against the dealer,
to play more hands per hour and extract the maximum benefit from high counts.
However, at the same time, the same books say that back-counting (Wonging) should
be an integral part of the playing strategy.
I see the pros and cons of both.
Back-counting certainly reduced the playing rate, but that's compensated by
playing at only optimum counts.
Playing heads-up allows you to play more hands per hour, but you must play
through low counts.
Naturally, you're allowed to "Wong-out", or leave the table, while playing
heads-up.
Now,... which is better.
In Atlantic City where mid-shoe entry is prohibited, you have no choice.
But what about Las Vegas?
Which is better? Back-counting, or playing heads-up?
Which method do most of you use?
Arctic,

Find a fine game and you can beat it no matter what the count.

Heads-up,,,,the best, and it is a going to war type style, and be prepared to draw heat and a potential crowd.

Wonging in you will get heat from the players, and that will lead to heat from the pit. Wonging out is another story.

CP
 

Martin Gayle

Well-Known Member
#10
Snyder Profit Index

Arnold Snyder has a formula. The Snyder Profit Index in which he grades games according to rules, conditions and player. I don't have the book infront of me now to look up the specifics. Anything over 50 you can play all and anything under 50 you should Wong. You would be surprised at how few games are over the 50 that would justify playing all.

I have used the SPI successfully and reccomend it.
 
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