approached

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#1
I had an odd incident occur last week while playing on the lower end of the strip. I had just played 40 minutes at a table that was pretty unremarkable. The count never went very positive (a couple bets of 2 and 4 units) and never went negative enough to reach my departure point of tc -1, but it was my third session at this large casino (different tables and pits of course) so I headed for the door. I had booked a very tiny win for these 3 sessions.

As I headed for the door, I was approached by a guy, mid to late 30's. He was dressed casually and asked if I would be interested in attending a meeting about forming card counting team? I replied, "no, that I didn't think that worked". He then said, oh, it looked like you were counting cards back there. I replied that I had tried that a few years ago, but now just try to find a dealer that breaks more than average. He said oh, ok and I headed towards the door. End of story.

I still haven't figured out in my mind whether this guy was legit or not. If He was, approaching someone inside a casino certainly seems like an odd way to recruit and one that I have never heard of. :confused: But regardless of whether he was who he said or not, it was an eye-opening experience for me and served great notice that I need to do a better job of covering my tracks and being more alert.

Of course I have no way of ever knowing for sure (unless one of you wants to admit to being this person...lol) but am still curious and wonder what those of you more experienced than myself think of this encounter.
 

daddybo

Well-Known Member
#2
I was playing at a table and this guy was standing behind me watching.. I was aware of it and kept playing with a large flat (max) bet in a good game. I was doing very well. I left the table and went to the HL room and placed a single bet with a freeplay in my pocket. When I turned around and left he was standing there again. Out side of the room I'm talking to this Asian guy I know, and he comes up and starts commenting on how lucky I was. He didn't look like he was connected to the casino.. but I didn't stick around... something about him made me a more than a little uncomfortable. I Imagine you felt much the same way. ( of course later, I'm wondering if I was being too paranoid.. After all, I'm not bad looking.) :laugh:
 

blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
#3
casino survaliance

I would have to say that you were both marked as counters. Paranoid is a healthy thing when it comes to being made as a ap. It does depend what level you were playing which is no doubt a level to reckon with. I would stay away for a while from the afore mentioned store for awhile. Go back and if you notice any hint of heat you were made.
 
#4
kewljason said:
I had an odd incident occur last week while playing on the lower end of the strip. I had just played 40 minutes at a table that was pretty unremarkable. The count never went very positive (a couple bets of 2 and 4 units) and never went negative enough to reach my departure point of tc -1, but it was my third session at this large casino (different tables and pits of course) so I headed for the door. I had booked a very tiny win for these 3 sessions.

As I headed for the door, I was approached by a guy, mid to late 30's. He was dressed casually and asked if I would be interested in attending a meeting about forming card counting team? I replied, "no, that I didn't think that worked". He then said, oh, it looked like you were counting cards back there. I replied that I had tried that a few years ago, but now just try to find a dealer that breaks more than average. He said oh, ok and I headed towards the door. End of story.

I still haven't figured out in my mind whether this guy was legit or not. If He was, approaching someone inside a casino certainly seems like an odd way to recruit and one that I have never heard of. :confused: But regardless of whether he was who he said or not, it was an eye-opening experience for me and served great notice that I need to do a better job of covering my tracks and being more alert.

Of course I have no way of ever knowing for sure (unless one of you wants to admit to being this person...lol) but am still curious and wonder what those of you more experienced than myself think of this encounter.
It's not at all uncommon to hook up with other counters you met in the casino but you want to make damned sure you see them playing and counting themselves before you share anything at all with them. The fact that he buttonholed you at the door is what is suspicious. If he mentioned something to you while playing it would have been a lot better.

Think of it as like joining a gang. Sure, the gang recruits off the street, but they want to see you shoot at a cop or a rival gang member before they let you in on the secrets of the gang.
 
#5
D-bo

daddybo said:
I was playing at a table and this guy was standing behind me watching.. I was aware of it and kept playing with a large flat (max) bet in a good game. I was doing very well. I left the table and went to the HL room and placed a single bet with a freeplay in my pocket. When I turned around and left he was standing there again. Out side of the room I'm talking to this Asian guy I know, and he comes up and starts commenting on how lucky I was. He didn't look like he was connected to the casino.. but I didn't stick around... something about him made me a more than a little uncomfortable. I Imagine you felt much the same way. ( of course later, I'm wondering if I was being too paranoid.. After all, I'm not bad looking.) :laugh:
D-BO,

It must have been that cute little ass of yours he liked.;)

:laugh:



CP
 
#6
Kewl

kewljason said:
I had an odd incident occur last week while playing on the lower end of the strip. I had just played 40 minutes at a table that was pretty unremarkable. The count never went very positive (a couple bets of 2 and 4 units) and never went negative enough to reach my departure point of tc -1, but it was my third session at this large casino (different tables and pits of course) so I headed for the door. I had booked a very tiny win for these 3 sessions.

As I headed for the door, I was approached by a guy, mid to late 30's. He was dressed casually and asked if I would be interested in attending a meeting about forming card counting team? I replied, "no, that I didn't think that worked". He then said, oh, it looked like you were counting cards back there. I replied that I had tried that a few years ago, but now just try to find a dealer that breaks more than average. He said oh, ok and I headed towards the door. End of story.

I still haven't figured out in my mind whether this guy was legit or not. If He was, approaching someone inside a casino certainly seems like an odd way to recruit and one that I have never heard of. :confused: But regardless of whether he was who he said or not, it was an eye-opening experience for me and served great notice that I need to do a better job of covering my tracks and being more alert.

Of course I have no way of ever knowing for sure (unless one of you wants to admit to being this person...lol) but am still curious and wonder what those of you more experienced than myself think of this encounter.
Kewl,

If the guy was legit he was also a rank amateur. Probably watched the movie fantasy "21" once too often.

But that is also a ploy that could be used by Surveillance.

BTW, you cannot cover your tracks, a good surveillance will know in no time if you are counting, unless you want to give up alot of EV, even then they can tell if they watch and are worth any salt at all.

CP
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#7
creeping panther said:
Kewl,

If the guy was legit he was also a rank amateur. Probably watched the movie fantasy "21" once too often.

But that is also a ploy that could be used by Surveillance.

BTW, you cannot cover your tracks, a good surveillance will know in no time if you are counting, unless you want to give up alot of EV, even then they can tell if they watch and are worth any salt at all.

CP
"cover my tracks" was a poor choice or wording by me, CP. It implies using cover, which is not what I meant. I personally don't believe in using much cover. My profit margin is just too slim to give much back. I believe the best cover for my game, is very short sessions and moving around alot.
 
#8
I never try to cover my play because if you are winning there's really no way to cover. Even the ploppys at the table will be on to you.

I learned this very early in my 'career'. I was at the old Binions when they didn't care to much about counters at a five dollar table. A very pretty young woman (this was so long ago I was young too) sat down next to me and began playing and losing. She had no idea what she was doing. after about two shoes, when the dealer was shuffling, she turned to me and said, "How do i win at this game?" I was a little shocked at the question and replied, "Just get closer to 21 than the dealer." She replied, "No, I mean how do I know when to bet more to win more." The dealer nearly fell on the floor laughing. He knew what I was doing, but I was amazed that this clueless ploppy figured it out in less than two shoes.

We're not fooling anyone trying to disguise our play. When we vary the bet and the chip stack is continually increasing, even the neophytes know we are doing something.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#9
Before they look at you as a potential counter, they look to see if know Basic Strategy. The two most glaring examples of BS I can think of are hitting A7 vs 10, and never taking insurance.
At my present betting levels,I don't use or need any cover.
If my bets increase, I suspect staying on a few A7 vs 10 hands and taking even money on some BJs would be enough to convince most pits I wasn't a threat.
 

wwcd

Well-Known Member
#12
shadroch said:
The two most glaring examples of BS I can think of are hitting A7 vs 10, and never taking insurance.

During my blackjack play for the last 1-2 months, I have seen only one instance of someone taking insurance (for a non-blackjack hand). Even money is a different thing and I've seen more than half of the folks going for even money. But insuring a non-blackjack hand was almost non-existent, with BS players and ploppies alike.

Definitely agree with you on the A7 though. Wherever I played, I always get weird looks, comments when I hit A7 against 9-10-A. Most of the times I have to say "whoa" to the dealer, since they automatically move on to the next player when they see my A7.
 
#13
wwcd said:
During my blackjack play for the last 1-2 months, I have seen only one instance of someone taking insurance (for a non-blackjack hand). Even money is a different thing and I've seen more than half of the folks going for even money. But insuring a non-blackjack hand was almost non-existent, with BS players and ploppies alike.

Definitely agree with you on the A7 though. Wherever I played, I always get weird looks, comments when I hit A7 against 9-10-A. Most of the times I have to say "whoa" to the dealer, since they automatically move on to the next player when they see my A7.
What I look for is not BS, but hitting 12 vs. [self-censored] at certain times.
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#14
Insurance by the count

wwcd said:
During my blackjack play for the last 1-2 months, I have seen only one instance of someone taking insurance (for a non-blackjack hand). Even money is a different thing and I've seen more than half of the folks going for even money. But insuring a non-blackjack hand was almost non-existent, with BS players and ploppies alike.

Definitely agree with you on the A7 though. Wherever I played, I always get weird looks, comments when I hit A7 against 9-10-A. Most of the times I have to say "whoa" to the dealer, since they automatically move on to the next player when they see my A7.
If evaluating a player as a possible counter, the fact that he takes or does not take insurance by itself is meaningless to a good evaluator. It is only about when he takes insurance, if at all. If you always or never take insurance, the evaluator knows nothing. If you only take it when you have something like a 20 or 11, the evaluator knows nothing.
It is the guy who never takes it till the count is above the indice for taking it and then takes it with a 20 or even a 14, who rings the bell for the evaluator.
 

Renzey

Well-Known Member
#15
shadroch said:
Before they look at you as a potential counter, they look to see if know Basic Strategy. The two most glaring examples of BS I can think of are hitting A7 vs 10, and never taking insurance.
At my present betting levels,I don't use or need any cover.
If my bets increase, I suspect staying on a few A7 vs 10 hands and taking even money on some BJs would be enough to convince most pits I wasn't a threat.
When your betting levels become higher, you will definitely need some cheap hand camo. You should often take Insurance for small amounts. That blends in with the real ones. It also blends in with some cheap doubles on 12.
BTW, when insuring at +3 or +4 true, toss an even amount out there that's a little less than full Insurance as a casual decision. If you're playing two hands and the TC is on the cusp, insure only the better of your two hands

But it's too expensive to stand with a soft 18 against a 9 or 10. Just hit it as quickly and nonchalantly as you can. If the game is S17, stand against the Ace.
 
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Finn Dog

Well-Known Member
#16
Renzey said:
When your betting levels become higher, you will definitely need some cheap hand camo. You should often take Insurance for small amounts. That blends in with the real ones. It also blends in with some cheap doubles on 12.
BTW, when insuring at +3 or +4 true, toss an even amount out there that's a little less than full Insurance as a casual decision. If you're playing two hands and the TC is on the cusp, insure only the better of your two hands

But it's too expensive to stand with a soft 18 against a 9 or 10. Just hit it as quickly and nonchalantly as you can. If the game is S17, stand against the Ace.
Great stuff Fred, keep 'em comin...and please chime in again if any more come to mind.

By the way, DOUBLE on 12? At what TC?

Best regards,

FD
 

SleightOfHand

Well-Known Member
#17
Finn Dog said:
Great stuff Fred, keep 'em comin...and please chime in again if any more come to mind.

By the way, DOUBLE on 12? At what TC?

Best regards,

FD
He means doubling for less ($1). You would do it if you were going to hit against the dealer upcard (2-6). I suppose the cost would be less at more negative counts due to less 10s in the deck.
 

Renzey

Well-Known Member
#18
Finn Dog said:
By the way, DOUBLE on 12? At what TC?
Double against a 2, 3 or 4 for maybe a 10th of your bet when you want to be seen making a "stupid" play. Do it at any count where hitting is correct and you wouldn't want to hit 13 if you caught an Ace. Insure anything for a 10th of your bet three or four times, just for show.

If somebody appears to be entertaining making a poor play such as splitting a pair of 10's against a 4, 5 or 6, doubling with their 9 against a 7, or with their 8 against a 6, or with their 11 against an Ace, offer to go in on it with them. These all carry a positive EV if the alternative is being on the sidelines with those hands. A morally questionable part is, you know it's costing the other player to do this. What happens is, you gain "x", the house gains "y", and the player holding the hand loses "xy" , although he still nets some remaining positive EV out of it. You're kind of being a reverse Robin Hood -- taxing the poor, giving to the rich and drawing a commission while building the image of a reckless gambler.
 
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assume_R

Well-Known Member
#19
Renzey said:
Double against a 2, 3 or 4 for maybe a 10th of your bet when you want to be seen making a "stupid" play. Do it at any count where hitting is correct and you wouldn't want to hit 13 if you caught an Ace. Insure anything for a 10th of your bet three or four times, just for show.
This makes a lot of sense since basically what you're saying is you're DEFINITELY only going to take 1 card anyway, so if it gives you some longevity why not add a very little bit to your bet.


Renzey said:
If somebody appears to be entertaining making a poor play such as splitting a pair of 10's against a 4, 5 or 6, doubling with their 9 against a 7, or with their 8 against a 6, or with their 11 against an Ace, offer to go in on it with them. These all carry a positive EV if the alternative is being on the sidelines with those hands.
Could you please explain why at a neutral count, for example, they all carry a positive EV versus not playing them, while they all have indices higher than 0? I'm sure there's a simple mathematical answer, I just don't know it.
 

Renzey

Well-Known Member
#20
assume_R said:
Could you please explain why at a neutral count, for example, they all carry a positive EV versus not playing them, while they all have indices higher than 0? I'm sure there's a simple mathematical answer, I just don't know it.
Take the first example, a pair of 10's against a 5. If you have that hand at a neutral count for $10 and stand with it, you'll win 84% of the time and lose 16% (counting pushes as a half win and half loss), for a net gain of 68% of your $10. If you split, you'll win on each Ten 63% of the time and lose 37%, netting 26% of $20. Since the first option makes more raw dollars, standing is your proper play.

Now if somebody else has that hand and is toying with the idea of splitting, your two options are either to get half of his split and win it 63% of the time -- or do nothing. Were he to split the hand on his own, he'd have a solid positive EV, albeit a reduced one compared to standing. You would just be getting in on his reduced profit.

It's the same with doubling 8 against a 6, with 9 against a 7, with 11 against and Ace, with splitting 9/9 against a 7 as well as a handful of soft hands that are incorrect basic strategy doubles, such as A/2 against a 4. They all win more often than they lose, although they do even better if played the basic strategy way.

There's a chapter on this in Bluebook II and it's also dealt with in Beyond Counting.

Woops! I'd better hedge on that last sentence. I'm not sure that Beyond Counting addresses improper basic strategy doubles and splits that still yield a positive net EV. Someone else may be able to comment.
 
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