New Counter

Hi everyone!

I've been cruising this forum a little bit here and there since yesterday. I still have yet to play a blackjack game at the casino (well I played one $20 bill 6 months ago and lost it ) But nothing serious. I have played a few slots and am a few $100 dollars ahead with that.

Anyways, I've always like blackjack and have extra time to learn a new trade. I'm only working part time and it's impossible to find more work right now.

I'm in my early 20s and have a few hundred to spare. I wish to god I could find a good $1 or $2 table somewhere in the St. Louis area but it doesn't seem to be possible. In a month or so I should be able to dedicate $1000 to gambling and then perhaps I will be comfortable with the $5 table.

In the meantime, I've been reading "Strike the Casino with Winning Strategies" by John Gollehon and "Winning Blackjack for the Serious player" Edwin Silberstang.

I am learning to count for a 6 deck game since the 2 deck game starts at $15 a bet. I've read the counting portions of these books and both use different systems. I like the the one that's in the latter book more. In the former book the counting system is based on only counting the 2-6s as positive and not even akknowledging the other numbers.. The second book counts (what I think is the stardard way) of: (3-6 is +1); (2,7,8,9 is neutral); (10 is - 1) and you simply count the aces by themselves.

I've been playing by myself. Using 3 decks and dealing out as though 7 people were playing. I then play the other hands and count the cards and then base my own turn that way. So far after going through the deck I seem to come out ahead at least by one penny (I start off with 30 pennies) . Oh, and when I play the other hands for the imaginary people I use the Gollehon chart to make their moves.

I had a few questions:

1. Does anyone use the "only counting 2-6s" method I mentioned earlier?

2. Why is in the second counting method I mentioned the 2 is neutral? I would think it would be plus since it is in the first counting method?

3. Do you agree with counting the ace seperately? Or do you count it as a negative?

4. Does latter counting system have a name?

5. What the heck is CW, etc?


Sorry for all the questions but I'm a curious one!

I'm not going to try to answer all those questions. But I will say you need to study the various counting strategies long and hard before committing to learning one. Many players here will offer their opinion I'm sure. Below is a link to various serious strategies and comparisons.

http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm

Then you need to decide how serious you are about it

After you decide on a good strategy and your level of pursuit.. you will probably need to purchase some other books and read them very carefully. It takes much time and effort to become proficient.

P.S. (I don't know what cw means either.. out of context anyway)

First, ignore both of those books. They are not very good and the counting systems you mentioned are not good places to start.

That system has been re-named and re-sold for a long time now, but it is still very weak. There are several systems that are much more powerful and just as simple.

Because it is weak. As you noticed, the 2 should be counted along with the other low cards. Ignoring it will weaken the counting system.

As a begginer you are better off starting with a system that does not count the aces seperately. You can always add it later if you want to, but it usually isn't worth the extra effort.

It is called Hi-Opt I and it is covered in Lance Humble's book World's Greatest Blackjack Book.

I'm not sure, but Conventional Wisdom might be a guess. It depends on what context it is used.

You can get a lot of information in the sticky threads at the top of the Card Counting forum. The Frequently Asked Questions and Intro to Card Counting threads will probably answer most of your questions, and the Free Counting Resources thread will give you some good practice sites.

-Sonny-

Thanks alot guys.

I had no idea there were so many counting strategies available. I'm a little bummed that you're saying the one I picked is a flawed one but it's alright cause I can easily forget it.

I am checking out the sections you pointed out now.

Does anyone recommend a book to read? I don't want to go out and buy more books that have inefficient methods.

Anyone got a favorite counting system?

The FAQ thread has suggestions for good books and counting systems for players of all levels.

-Sonny-

Blackjack Attack by Don Schlesinger and Blackbelt in Blackjack by Arnold Snyder

Zen count

:laugh: I was going to let you find out about the books and systems you mentioned on your own. (kind of a first test). Sonny's more compassionate than I.

Daddybo - I actually already see the list. I wanted to know the books that particular members recommended. It is just one list after all. Although it seems like most people agree anyways.

I read about the counting systems for beginners. The thing is that I wouldn't mind something harder if it makes my chances better for a 6 deck. I've always been very good at keeping numbers in my head and I think with enough practice I can get the zen count down (that one looks better than the hi-lo according to the chart).

Continued thanks to everyone.

Zen is good. As for the books... your choice of books becomes easier after you choose your count... Since most are count specific. There are other books that have good info and are just fun to read. Learn all you can.

I'm going to let some of the other more experienced players here give you advice on the specific counting system to use and the names of them, but I have several things to say.

1. Do your homework. It's vitally important you learn concepts such as standard deviation, expected value, risk or ruin, wonging, etc. etc. Please for your sake spend a lot of time learning about card counting before placing any bets.
2. Here are some numbers regarding money management.

For a pretty standard "HiLo Lite Full Indices" counting strategy:
You mentioned $5 minimums, 6D shoes.
For a 75% penetration (4.5 out of 6 decks cut), 1-10 spread ($5 to $50), S17DAS game:
Win/Hour = $8.12 <-- over millions of hands how much money you'll make on average
Standard Deviation per Hour = $207. <-- That means that 67% of the time you'll be between 8.12-207 and 8.12+207 or between -$198.88 and +$215.12 per hour, and 95% of the time you'll be between 8.12-1.96*207 and 8.12+1.96*207 or between -$397.6 and +$413.84 per hour. (someone feel free to correct me if those #'s are off...)

Regarding money management:
with a $1,000 bankroll your RoR (Risk of Ruin, or chance of losing all your money) is 68.4%. That's with betting between $5 and $50 depending on the count. If you increase your bankroll to $5,000 your RoR drops to 15%. This will change drastically depending on conditions, spread, wonging out, etc. So your comment about being comfortable with $1,000 and $5 tables might need to be reconsidered.

Just some food for thought. This forum is a great place to ask questions and learn before putting your hard earned cash on the table. As long as you're polite

Borrowed Post but the perfect example to follow.

Don't whip me for borrowing this post from member: AceTen which was posted on another site, but I think this is an example of the best plan to follow for anyone just starting out.

BJC

Um, yeah...Not too sure about the $1000 dollars for the $5 dollar tables anymore. 67% sounds like crap. But what about if I back counted only. No sitting through whole shoes?

Anyways, it's looking like I'm going to have to find some $2 tables (I've heard 1$ tables is rare) somewhere in the St. Louis area. I think I heard something about Alton, IL having something but who knows.

I am going to Casino Queen in E. St Louis to check out the $2 BJ tables. It might have terrible rules but I can only hope :cry:

If you can regularly add to your bankroll then you can play above what your actual bankroll is at the moment and play out of your theoretical bankroll. I still recommend wonging.

Also at a $2 table you'll really be grinding unless you hit a nice fluctuation which is entirely possible.

Simulation for Hi-Lo Lite Full Indices:
6D, 75%, S17DAS, $5-$50, $1,000 bankroll:
Playing full shoes: $8.12/hr, 68.4% RoR
Wonging in at +2: $3.86/hr, 21.9% RoR (note in this case the optimal betting changes to $20 @+2 to $50@ +5 or greater)

Note that if you find better than 75% pen that will increase your win rate dramatically. 75% is the bare minimum you should play. I won't play against that even, not if I am just counting.

Also at your level you might be able to up your WR a bit with scavenging doubles.