Improving your KISS III Count for the 6 Deck Shoe

Deathclutch

Well-Known Member
#1
Here's a little something I've been playing with since I've read Color Of Blackjack and I know a lot of people don't like to use unbalanced counts because of the fact that it's not always entirely accurate. With what I'm doing here I believe you can be more accurate than a balanced count, as long as you can keep an accurate running count, and can estimate within a 1 deck range.

All of the things listed here should be done after you have already mastered the KISS III count as ways to improve your game. So take from here what you like and what you're comfortable with.

I came up with the TC in all of these methods by using the formula
RC-(IRC+2*Decks Dealt) then divided by Remaining Decks = True Count if anyone needs to create different points.

The Side Count

The first thing I'd like to add will turn a lot of people off to the idea of improving their game because the entire point of using an unbalanced count is simplicity. Well after a bit of time the simplicity becomes second nature and it doesn't take much to add some more pieces to our game. We all know that KISS III is a great count for betting purposes, but we all also know that when we upgrade from KISS II to III we are actually giving up a lot of our playing efficiency and our insurance correlation. But we really don't have to!

The only difference between II and III is that III counts the Aces and 7's, where as II does not. So if we keep a side count (I said it!) of Aces vs 7's we can add that to our RC for betting purposes and just use the black 2's, 3's, 4', 5's, 6's, and 10's for our main count.

Black 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 = +1​
10 = -1
7 = A, B, C, D . . .
A = Z, Y, X, W . . .

Remember the side count is a ratio, not two separate side counts!​

This really sounds harder than it is. Since KISS users don't have to convert it's basically just keeping two RC's and doing simple addition or subtraction before making the bet. The easiest method I've found is to count 7's as A, B, C so on and so forth and for Aces to be Z, Y, X, W. So if you saw cards come out 3, 7, 5, 9, 10, 7, Ace your count would go (IRC 9) 10, 10A, 11A, 11A, 10A, 10B, 10A. Our RC would be 11 for betting purpose (10+A=11) and only 10 for playing and insurance decision. Practice on your own a bit and you'll be amazed at how fast you pick it up.

So theoretically, if you played this way with the side count, you'd have a BC of .98 (if you count all 2's as .5) or .97 if you count only black 2's, a PE of .62, and an IC of .87. That's as strong as a level 2 count, just adding to the arsenal you already have mastered!

Disclaimer: the above numbers are assuming you're true counting the KISS II and III tag values, don't worry we'll solve that problem too.

Estimating our Advantage
The next issue that people become concerned with is the fact that KISS III a lot of times will overestimate your advantage early in the shoe and underestimate it towards the end of a shoe. Luckily Daniel Dravot in Color of Blackjack has shown us an easy way to solve that problem using a warm and cold line ramp.



You'll also note that earlier in the shoe we're laying out our max bet before we should be (assuming you're max betting at a +3 TC). This can easily be solved by remembering a couple numbers.

At the beginning of a 6 deck shoe max bet should be placed at RC 27 or higher and lowered by 1 with each deck remaining
(you'll see why these numbers are extra important in a moment!)

Conversely you have a slight advantage off the top of a shoe at RC 15 and this number should rise by 1 for every deck played. Now early on when all those low cards come out in the first hand you'll be able to notice opportunities a lot sooner!

In the chart above we can see that KISS III normally wants us to raise our bet at a RC of 20. Unfortunately that misses a lot of opportunities early on in the shoe (keep in mind "warm line" is a +1 True Count, a very slight advantage in most games, I'll post the +1.5 numbers here too.)

If your game is sub par I would recommend waiting for a +1.5 TC before raising your bets and those numbers rise by half RC's so this works better if you count all 2's as .5. They start at 18, 18.5, 19, 19.5, 20, 20.5. (Round the numbers up if you count only black 2's.) - Edit: I should note that you'd want to use this group if you only play H17 games.

The Insurance Decision

The next thing I'd like to put on here is a better way to make your insurance calls. Insurance is normally taken at the RC of 25 when using KISS III. However, that's just an all around compromise. You would normally want to take it at a +3 TC which varies as decks are played as you can see here.



From here you can see that at any point, other than two decks in, we'll be slightly off from making the correct insurance call. The solution to this is very simple. Off the top of a 6 deck shoe insurance should be taken at 27 or above, and then reduced by 1 for every deck played. This is exactly the same as remembering the ramp for your max bet (told you that ramp would be important!)

Index Ramps

This is the last thing I believe should be added to your game as this is probably the hardest one of them all, and probably the least important in a 6 deck game, but if you want to get most of the effect of that .62 PE it needs to be done. This is touched on in Fred Renzey's book Blackjack Bluebook II, but I think it gets overlooked more than it should.



As you can see here it's exactly the same as our betting and insurance ramp. The running count moves with the number of decks. But the great thing is that it's always moving in the same direction by the same amount in proportion to number of remaining decks!

Here is a few of the one's that are listed in Fred's book (don't worry, I asked permission) and you can see that they group together to make it easier (although this is probably the least important of the listed improvements.)

16 V 10 and 12 V 4 - 10,12,14,16,18,19
12 V 6, 13 V 2, and 9 V 3 - 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18
12 V 5, 13 V 3, 10 V 9 - -3, 1, 5, 9, 13, 17

Last Words
Some people may find this daunting (or even unnecessary) but I've found in my time discovering these things as I play the game that as long as you take it one at a time these are very easy to implement. A switch to a level 2 balanced may be easier for some, but as long as you make your charts and follow them perfectly you can play with far less estimation than you were before, on par or better than a true counted equivalent.

Anyone that can, please check the math, I'm sure there are some mistakes in here somewhere as I've been drawing this stuff up over the past couple nights.

Also a lot of this is similar to the True Fudging method also described in Blackjack Bluebook II, but I've never seen anyone just lay the numbers out there for others to use.
 
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assume_R

Well-Known Member
#2
Very nice DC! You have a good understanding of the TC conversion for unbalanced systems and how to overcome the limitations of unbalanced systems.

Now I attempted to recreated the numbers you used, and while I don't know too much about the KISS systems, if I assume a neutral deck is considered +2 (as you did 2 * Decks Dealt in your equation), and I start at an IRC of +9, then I was able to get the values you did, as seen in the attached excel sheet. We on the same page here?

Also make sure you point out that you calculated these for 6D shoes.
 

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Deathclutch

Well-Known Member
#3
assume_R said:
Very nice DC! You have a good understanding of the TC conversion for unbalanced systems and how to overcome the limitations of unbalanced systems.

Now I attempted to recreated the numbers you used, and while I don't know too much about the KISS systems, if I assume a neutral deck is considered +2 (as you did 2 * Decks Dealt in your equation), and I start at an IRC of +9, then I was able to get the values you did, as seen in the attached excel sheet. We on the same page here?

Also make sure you point out that you calculated these for 6D shoes.
Wow, that's a nice chart there. I just did a quick glance but the numbers look right from what I saw. I did mine by hand, as I can hardly make an unbalanced count come out positive when I sim it although I know the problem is with me and not the system :laugh:
 
#4
great post!
i am a new counter and have spent the last month or so becoming proficient using the kiss III count. i enjoyed renzeys book and have been using CVBJ as a training tool. being a new counter i was drawn to using an unbalanced count but was always worried about the inaccuracies in the count away from the pivot point. renzeys true fudging method addresses this but in his book but only mentions how to use it for the playing indexes and makes no mention of using these principals for bet sizing. seeing these charts really helped illustrate the concept of true count converting the kiss III count. i cant wait to use these tips at the tables!
 

assume_R

Well-Known Member
#5
halfday said:
great post!
i am a new counter and have spent the last month or so becoming proficient using the kiss III count. i enjoyed renzeys book and have been using CVBJ as a training tool. being a new counter i was drawn to using an unbalanced count but was always worried about the inaccuracies in the count away from the pivot point. renzeys true fudging method addresses this but in his book but only mentions how to use it for the playing indexes and makes no mention of using these principals for bet sizing. seeing these charts really helped illustrate the concept of true count converting the kiss III count. i cant wait to use these tips at the tables!
If you are just starting to learn a count, strongly consider starting with one of the powerful balanced system, instead of converting an unbalanced system to a true count version. There's no question it can be done (as you can see DeathClutch did a very good job with this), but it may be in your benefit to spend the extra time mastering either Zen or HiOpt2 to start with. And the indices for these published balanced system have been time-tested. You may kick yourself later if you decide to switch.

Like I said, nothing wrong with true count converting an unbalanced system like DC did, but it's a lot of hastle and could be prone to on-the-fly mistakes and guestimations, especially if you've only just picked up card counting a month ago. Your call.
 

Deathclutch

Well-Known Member
#6
halfday said:
great post!
i am a new counter and have spent the last month or so becoming proficient using the kiss III count. i enjoyed renzeys book and have been using CVBJ as a training tool. being a new counter i was drawn to using an unbalanced count but was always worried about the inaccuracies in the count away from the pivot point. renzeys true fudging method addresses this but in his book but only mentions how to use it for the playing indexes and makes no mention of using these principals for bet sizing. seeing these charts really helped illustrate the concept of true count converting the kiss III count. i cant wait to use these tips at the tables!
Glad I was able to help someone out with this. Since this has been posted I've personally moved on to Hi Opt II, but what was posted here still holds true. These are all little things that should be added on one by one after you master KISS III as it is presented. Don't worry as much about things like index ramps, they don't add much. The side count and the betting/insurance ramps will make a difference however.
 
#7
Deathclutch said:
Glad I was able to help someone out with this. Since this has been posted I've personally moved on to Hi Opt II, but what was posted here still holds true. These are all little things that should be added on one by one after you master KISS III as it is presented. Don't worry as much about things like index ramps, they don't add much. The side count and the betting/insurance ramps will make a difference however.
thanks again dude. i have also been considering a switch to a balanced or even level 2 system. i feel like i have kiss III completely mastered and that my concern over the true count calculation for balanced counts was a lil overblown and i can easily handle more. was there any reason u chose hi opt II? from what ive read zen is pretty powerful but has been published in several different versions (different resolutions for the true count calculation i think) and that some are better than others. how has ur experience been switching to a more complex strategy? any success at the tables?
 

Deathclutch

Well-Known Member
#8
halfday said:
thanks again dude. i have also been considering a switch to a balanced or even level 2 system. i feel like i have kiss III completely mastered and that my concern over the true count calculation for balanced counts was a lil overblown and i can easily handle more. was there any reason u chose hi opt II? from what ive read zen is pretty powerful but has been published in several different versions (different resolutions for the true count calculation i think) and that some are better than others. how has ur experience been switching to a more complex strategy? any success at the tables?
Honestly go with whatever is easiest for you. If adding to an unbalanced is easy do it. If you are thinking about eventually learning advanced techniques the switch to a balanced will basically be required.

Zen would be a great choice if you want to switch to a level 2. I chose Hi Opt II because there are some great DD games in my area that I wanted to take advantage of and wanted the most power I could get from straight counting them. I use to switch between the two counts and use the KISS III presented above for shoes, but eventually just decided to use the Hi Opt II for all.
 
#9
Kiss III Improvements Question

Death Clutch,

Great analysis of the Kiss III Count Improvement for 6 Deck.
I was really intrigued by your improvements and wanted to know where did you get your hand groupings for the index ramp? I have the BBII and generally understood 16v10, 12v4 being grouped together but I could not figure out how you grouped 12v5, 13v3, 10v9. Also could you please send me or tell me where I could find the complete groupings of hands.

Also am I correct in pointing out that the graph for the index ramp for TC 16v10 should end with 5 decks at 20 instead of 19? I believe that Fred said that 4 ½ decks in was 19?

Thanks for your reply and for your analysis
 
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