Am I waisting my time learning Card Counting?

I just got into trying Blackjack about 2 weeks ago now that a Casino opened up a couple of blocks away from me (before I just played the slots).

I found a website that gives some pretty good lessons on Basic Strategy and Card Counting ((Dead link: http://www.freeblackjacktips.com/bjschool.html)) _http://www.freeblackjacktips.com/bjschool.html_). I think I have Basic Strategy almost down pat (there are a couple of mix ups once in awhile; usually occuring when I'm tired). I just started reading up on the card counting sections and know that it will take me quite awhile to learn.

In a lot of reading material I've read so far, they are saying that to come out ahead you need a large bankroll. Are they talking about a large bankroll per year or per session? I'm not a high roller; I only play with $100 at a time usually. However, Friday (tomorrow) I plan on bringing $200 with me and start with $100 betting (I'll place anywhere between one unit and two, 1 unit=$5). I won't be using card counting yet as I don't know it that well yet and I want to make sure I have Basic Strategy down pat first. In the future I would like to try it; but, is it a waste of time if I only go in with $100 a session? Right now, Blackjack is just entertainment for me and I go in with what I can afford to lose (which, as you can see, isn't very much). I would like to do more than just break even or losing $40.

Last week I went in with $100 and broke even after playing around 3.5 hours. I used Basic Strategy but strayed from it often because the dealer was not busting when he should have been and I was busting my 12's etc. A lot of the times when I strayed, I would win. Whenever the dealer was doing well for 2-3 hands I would leave the table and try another and kept doing that until I broke even. I then decided it was time to leave (I was cold and hungry) so I left.

One more thing: A player next to me was asking the dealer how many decks he was using because he was shuffling what looked like 1 -2 decks and there was still cards in the shuffle tray. She innocently asked why all the cards weren't in the tray (yeah right). The pit boss came over and told her that they use 5 decks and shuffle at different stages because of card counting. And he was pretty snarky about it. Now, most everyone on this board have been talking about 4 or 6 decks and not 5. Would the pit boss be telling a lie? This is my first real casino I've been to and was wondering if any do use 5 decks. How do you go about finding out how many decks they are using without raising any alarms. There was a table I sat at last week where the pit boss was watching the guys like a hawk. But, I was wondering about them also because no one said a word (they were too serious) and they all had huge stacks except for me.

Sorry for the long post. These were just some questions I had and I don't know anyone who is serious about Blackjack (or gambling).

Hmmmm

Cyclinggimpe (motorcycle or bicycle??? just curious as I ride motorcycles too).

Any answer made to your "buyin" question is going to be very subjective. I play a lot like you did on that last trip. I usually buyin for a minimum of $100 and play $5 and $10 hands, sometimes playing two spots when they are available. Most of the time, if the cards fall pretty close to the probabilities, you will come out pretty close to even. Variance can kill you though....dealer gets on a hot streak and you can wipe out pretty quickly. It can go the other way though and that's why it's called gambling.

Example: Last weekend, I took $250 to a casino that has 6-deck shoe games with $5 minimums. I sat at one table and bought in for $100. That table seemed cold to me because after the first full shoe, I was down about $40. I changed tables and then went to a third table before my initial buyin was exhausted. Down $100. I took a break and played some MultiStrike Video Poker for an hour and then went back to the BJ tables. This time, I bought in at a $3 table for only $60 thinking to just kill time until my wife was ready to leave. Got frustrated with the slow play at that table and moved to a nearby $5 table. I still had the $60 in red chips and I was the only one at the $5 table. I bet two spots ($5 on each circle) and started winning. I colored up with $345 in chips!

Understand though, that I was not spreading my bets....I was flat betting a straight $5 per hand. For that type bet, I find that usually a $100 BR is enough to give you all the BJ play you might want but I like to have twice that much just in case I get on a bad streak of luck. My rule of thumb for flat betting is to have 20 times whatever I plan to wager per hand as a starting BR.

Mikeaber: I used to ride a motorcycle but then my commute grew from 15 min to 50 min so I got a car (it rains a lot here). Next motorcycle will be when I can afford the expensive toys. Now I mainly bicycle (tried some road and mountain bike racing in the past; now cycle for fitness).

Did you use card counting when you came out ahead of the game or just basic strategy? I know that you wouldn't make those winnings all the time but I guess it still would be worth learning card counting with my meager buy-in?

I'll have to see how I do tomorrow using Basic Strategy only. I won't be on a time limit (for play) so if the dealer keeps winning, I'll leave the table and walk around a bit before continuing play.

One more thing: Are there inexpensive Blackjack simulators like the "Casino Verite Blackjack" and are they worth investing in? Or just using decks of cards at home a good enough method of learning?

my two cents

in card counting, yes, you do need to have a big bankroll, but you're more or less thinking of it the wrong way:

there are two types of bankrolls, a "fixed" bankroll, in which you pretty much operate with a starting amount and never add to it. If you're taking this route this bankroll needs to be pretty high in order to ride out the negative variation.

then there's your "replenishable" bankroll, which is a bankroll which you pretty much always are adding to if needed, this comes from people with steady jobs who like to plunk in a hundred or two a week, that's your category.

at a $5 table, a $100 bankroll is risky but you might be able to get away with it. I'd say $200-$250 should get you through everything but some really bad downswings.

Is it worth learning? I don't know, is it worth learning something new and working hard to make money that luck might have gotten you anyways? That's up to you. I myself can't imagine playing regular table blackjack without counting anymore, knowing what I know.

As for the simulators. If you're serious, CVBJ is an excellent teaching tool, if not expensive. Although the lite version is only $45, and includes pretty much everything but the tournament stuff. However, I used the Sage Blackjack Shareware before I got that, it's pretty handy, has multiple players, and is just generally pretty easy to use, that can be found at (Dead link: http://www.s-a-g-e.com/)

I pretty much go to the casino when I get my pay check and pay my bills with it and set some aside for my mortgage first. I usually take $100 with me but this week I have an extra $100 to take along ($200). We only have $5 and $10 min tables at the casino I go to and I play the $5 tables. I'm not looking to win thousands of dollars. I'd be happy to come out with $50-$100 rather than breaking even or losing half or all.

I downloaded the Sage shareware and like it. But how do you practice card counting with it? I can't really see how many used cards are in the tray. Are you able to practise card counting with CVBJ?

Is it okay to ask the dealer at a casino how many decks they are using? Or will this get them suspicious?

The experts say

And I agree, counting done right takes lots and lots of practice, I mean day in day out everyday, for months before you are ready to even give it a try. Then you gotta master not letting the world know you are counting. Then come up with the money to play at the level it takes.
For me I play alot like you do, buy in $100 to $200, flat play, agressive basic, ie doubling on 9's as well as 10 add A's, splitting a pair of 3 against the dealer six, or doubling an A-7 against a dealer 4 things like that, can double the $100 alot of the time, bear in mind you can loose the $100 on any given day to.

cycle

I understand.....I hurt my back badly picking up a fallen bike and now can ride only minimally. I now get my exercise at a BJ table <sigh>. It's a hard program, but I wanted something that would really give me a workout <LOL>

Practice software....there are quite a few programs available both for practicing counting and for learning Basic Strategy. I use one by Masque. It is a multihand game simulator that lets you play as many or as few hands as you wish, with or without computer generated opponents. The computer players all "count" and there is a view window that lets you see the true count and the running count.

I deal from a double deck quite a bit too. I like handling the cards and chips and counting out the payoffs has helped me keep a double check on dealers. You'd be surprised at how many times they make mistakes.

With that said, let it be known that at this time this player doesn't count. Hell, I have trouble remembering what I had for lunch! But from what I've heard, if you are planning on a 1-5 spread, you will be hard pressed to maintain many losses on a $200 BR. You must understand that just because you know the condition of the deck and it is favorable to you, there is no guarantee that you are going to win any given hand. You could loose or push a majority (that old variance thing) when the count is high. But in the long run, a counter definitely has the advantage because variance will get back in line and you will win most of those big bets. That's the theory anyway and it must work.....casinos sure think it does!

But I make no bones about it....BJ is a recreaction for me....not a source of income. I don't play if I can't afford to loose...yet, I go in with the expectation of winning and often do, just with Basic Strategy. More often though, I come so close to breaking even that I write off any loss to entertainment because they are usually so small.

I however, would not discourage you from learning counting skills. One of these days, I'll break down and take it up myself when the game begins to either get boreing or too expensive for me to play the way I am now.

if you click on or rollover (I forgot which) the discard pile it shows you how many cards have been discarded, you should be able to figure out the TC from that.

As for CVBJ, that's what it's made for, not onle does it have just about every casino condition in the world, but it has drills to help you with counting, deck estimation, bet sizing, you name it.

The fact of the matter is this, if you want to make money in the long run, you need to learn card counting, whether it's thousands of dollars and just a couple hundred, the only way to get a positive value over itme is to know when you have the advantage over the casinos and play accordingly.

As for the question of asking how many decks, no, it shouldn't cause suspicion, most ploppies know that the fewer decks the better the odds so no harm there, but soon enough you'll be able to look at a shoe and tell how many decks it is, so it won't be a problem.

Scorcho: Thanks, I didn't know that you could get the count from the discard pile. I think the shoe at this casino I go to is solid black; you can't see the cards except for the ones coming out of the shoot. I'll have to look at that tomorrow. I will keep learning counting once I get the Basic down pat. I still make one or two errors when I go through my exercises.

Mikeaber: What is the Masque software called? (I'll do a google later). I'm like you, I look at gambling as entertainment not a source of living. If I lose the money, I'll be disappointed but not in financial trouble. But I would love to come out ahead most of the time .

Masque

It's on a CD called "IGT Slots Multiplay Video Poker." It's NOT video poker at all but rather a simulated shuffle where you specify the number of decks and the general table rules. It even has audio cues if you make a basic strategy mistake though I did find a couple of discrepencies. For instance, it thinks you have made an error if you double an eleven against a dealer Ace. I think I paid $20 for this one at Best Buy...maybe CompUSA, I can't remember...and that's why I don't count <LOL>

From what I have read, you should be looking to the discard pile to determine the cards played. From you description it sounds like they are playing out of an autoshuffler. Do you see the dealer shuffle the cards? Buy 6 decks of cards and you can practice identifying how many cards have been played by examining the heights of your stacked cards. A typical stack of cards is about 5/8ths of an inch. Since blackjack is strictly a hobby for me, I don't intend to count at this time. There is a lot going on in the casinos that is part of the entertainment, and if I can keep within the expected loss for the long run and earn some comps, that is fine with me.

actually if you wanna get technical that actually brings you over the negative mark and into the realm of positive expectation, if you figure the comps are worth more than the .5% you'll lose in the long run. The only problem with that is that in order to earn higher comps you have to spend more money which means you need to lose more money, but still, it's another way to earn a positive E.V without card counting.

I am going to buy some more decks today, actually, to practice the cards discard height. I have been practicing counting in pairs and seem to do alright except when I time myself and want to go faster. I read you should count through a deck of cards in 15 - 20 sec. The fastest for me so far is 45 sec; so, I have a long way to go. I decided to persue card counting after losing yesterday by using just basic strategy.

What are comps? If I know what they are then I'll ask at the casino if they offer them?

software and a little extra

cycle,

wanted to add that I have been using casino verite for about a month now. I use the full program that cost about 95 dollars which is well worth the price in my opinion. it is very realistic, you can see the shoe and discard tray so you can practice estimating how many cards have been played. even though I use an unbalanced system and don't have to convert to a true count I still like to have an idea of how many cards have been dealt. so I pay attention to the discard tray as well as the shoe. it's pretty easy to learn to identify the look of 1 and 2 decks in the discard tray. when it gets to about 3 decks I start comparing the discard tray to the shoe and that helps to make an accurate estimate of where I am as far as cards.

that part about a black shoe where you can't see the cards is something I hope casinos don't start doing. and if they ever made a fuss about asking how many decks they use, I'd say they are getting a little paranoid about nothing. I'm certainly not one who has all the data on this but from what I have read and from my own limited experiences card counters are no threat to the casinos, at least not to the point where they need to be changing rules, putting in anti-counting devices etc........ seems to me with the small percentage of counters out there that are good enough and have enough bankroll to make a living at it would hardly be a big enough threat to counteract what most of the suckers do to make them millions. I agree with the thinking that the interest in card counting, all that stuff they televise on the history and travel channels is benefitting casinos more than turning card counters lose on the casinos. seems to me they should take advantage of these programs and welcome the growing mass of players at the tables. but unfortunately casinos are a business like anything else. instead of looking at the big picture they focus on the extremely small percentage of good players and try to find ways to tap out that element. just like any other business whoever is in charge of the table games is responsible for reaking out the highest possible profit, and if that means changing the rules so that they can limit losses at what would have to be a small percentage of losses they incur due to serious and successful card counting then thats what they will do. but of course they will miss the big picture if they use technology and the "threat" of card counting as a justification for changing the rules to an extent that it's no longer a beatable game. suckers will always bring in the profits for the casinos, and they don't care about the rules, any changes will not affect them. if casinos want to increase profits they need to focus on ways to bring more suckers in. if they make drastic changes to the few games that require a brain and can be beaten then they will lose that part of their customer base. that won't help the bottom line. I really enjoy the game and I think I can get good at this, it's a new hobby but I'm no dreamer. I have no plans for jet-setting around the globe making my millions playing blackjack. still, the thought that the game can be beaten and the atmosphere of the whole experience is something that attracts me to the game. if they change that they won't see me at the tables and I have to believe there are others who feel the same way, maybe most of you guys/gals on this site feel the same way? to be honest, maybe they should encourage counting? again, very few people count, and those that do, very few can make a living at it. is this correct? how about this for casinos to consider.......card counting is good for business, and should even be encouraged, unless of course the card counter is winning. I wonder if the casinos have enough business sense to figure that one out?

ok I guess I went a little overboard on this one. it's just that playing blackjack and the thought of playing with an advantage is part of the thrill that takes us away for a few hours of our normal lives. I have never been and never will be one of those idiots who clunks my hard earned dollars into a mindless slot machine. anyone want to add to this?

mike

Comps

anybody that spends 4 to 5 hours at a table flat betting the minimum without counting cards and plays for comps should be prepared for 1/2 a BLT to cost $20 plus. You might get lucky on occasion but consider your time entertainment not a way to profit with comps, the casino's comps are not haphazard but rather mathamatically calculated and you "Ain't" gonna fool them, even then you have to hope the "Pit Critter" gives you full credit.

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I uninstalled my copy of Sage BJ software in order to move it to an external hard drive. Now when I go on line I can't find anywhere to download a new copy, HELP!!