First Holecarding Experience

wwcd

Well-Known Member
#1
I've been reading a lot about holecarding during the last week, and wanted to go and see if I can really experience it at a casino. Went to an NA casino, and sat down at a DD pitch game.

First and second dealers passed by with no flashing the hole card. I was just playing my BS game and going up and down, hanging in there. Then came the third dealer.

At one point, she had an Ace as upcard, and I could almost swear that I saw that she stuck a face card underneath (saw very little paint). She offered insurance, but I got so excited that I couldn't even think of what to do. This was the first time I actually saw the hole card. Anyways, I was a rookie at this so didn't take the insurance, and soon enough, she declared that she had blackjack!

This was so exciting, my heart started pumping faster! So, now I kept focusing on her hole card the whole time. She was good most of the time, with showing nothing or very little that only a trained eye can catch.

One time, she had a queen as the upcard, and I saw a five going underneath, bright and clear. I had a 9. Without hesitation, I doubled my 9 against her queen and there it was: queen and five. She hit her 15 with a 10 for a bust and I won my double. At this point my heart rate was through the roof, boy is holecarding fun! :)

Next time (a couple hands later), she was showing a queen again, and a 3 in the hole. I had an Ace and 4. I hesitated a little bit on this one, but then decided to double (checked the holecard strategy now and it was the correct move). She pulled a 7 for a total of 20, and I lost, but oh well, she got lucky on that one.

I also experienced wrong pays twice. Once, the dealer counted his cards wrong. He had 7-7-4, but counted as 17, while me and another guy had 18. He paid both of us, and we both grabbed our winnings immediately ;) Seconds before the dealer discarded his cards, he figured that he had 18, and that we both had a push. He called the floor, and told them the situation and requested that we give back our winnings. Well, he was right, so I didn't create a scene and gave back his money. Have any of you had a situation like this? Should I have declined to pay back since he already completed the payment process?

On the second occasion, at the DD table, I was luckier. I doubled my Ace and 2 against dealer's 5. She gave me one card (it's a pitch game, so the card is face down). Then she pulled a 10 and then a 4 for a 19. She opened up my cards, and my face down card turned out to be a queen, for a total of 13. She proceeded to pay my double, while chatting with some other player. I pocketed the chips and two hands later I walked away from the table. I thought the surveillance somehow could have caught and asked for the money back. Do you think surveillance would bother on such a thing (I am a single red chipper)?

Wow what a night. This game is sure a lot of fun, but holecarding adds even more fun to it. Hope I'll be finding more of these sloppy dealers.
 
#2
ww

wwcd said:
I've been reading a lot about holecarding during the last week, and wanted to go and see if I can really experience it at a casino. Went to an NA casino, and sat down at a DD pitch game.

First and second dealers passed by with no flashing the hole card. I was just playing my BS game and going up and down, hanging in there. Then came the third dealer.

At one point, she had an Ace as upcard, and I could almost swear that I saw that she stuck a face card underneath (saw very little paint). She offered insurance, but I got so excited that I couldn't even think of what to do. This was the first time I actually saw the hole card. Anyways, I was a rookie at this so didn't take the insurance, and soon enough, she declared that she had blackjack!

This was so exciting, my heart started pumping faster! So, now I kept focusing on her hole card the whole time. She was good most of the time, with showing nothing or very little that only a trained eye can catch.

One time, she had a queen as the upcard, and I saw a five going underneath, bright and clear. I had a 9. Without hesitation, I doubled my 9 against her queen and there it was: queen and five. She hit her 15 with a 10 for a bust and I won my double. At this point my heart rate was through the roof, boy is holecarding fun! :)

Next time (a couple hands later), she was showing a queen again, and a 3 in the hole. I had an Ace and 4. I hesitated a little bit on this one, but then decided to double (checked the holecard strategy now and it was the correct move). She pulled a 7 for a total of 20, and I lost, but oh well, she got lucky on that one.

I also experienced wrong pays twice. Once, the dealer counted his cards wrong. He had 7-7-4, but counted as 17, while me and another guy had 18. He paid both of us, and we both grabbed our winnings immediately ;) Seconds before the dealer discarded his cards, he figured that he had 18, and that we both had a push. He called the floor, and told them the situation and requested that we give back our winnings. Well, he was right, so I didn't create a scene and gave back his money. Have any of you had a situation like this? Should I have declined to pay back since he already completed the payment process?

On the second occasion, at the DD table, I was luckier. I doubled my Ace and 2 against dealer's 5. She gave me one card (it's a pitch game, so the card is face down). Then she pulled a 10 and then a 4 for a 19. She opened up my cards, and my face down card turned out to be a queen, for a total of 13. She proceeded to pay my double, while chatting with some other player. I pocketed the chips and two hands later I walked away from the table. I thought the surveillance somehow could have caught and asked for the money back. Do you think surveillance would bother on such a thing (I am a single red chipper)?

Wow what a night. This game is sure a lot of fun, but holecarding adds even more fun to it. Hope I'll be finding more of these sloppy dealers.
You had a great experience there.

Props to you for being so alert.

Now play the dealers. Just keep cool, don't go over the top.

NO, you always give the money back, never hassle them about that.

CP
 

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#3
creeping panther said:
Now play the dealers. Just keep cool, don't go over the top.

CP
And you DID go over the top.

Never double 9 when the dealer's showing a ten. Never soft double vs. a ten. NEVER hit hard 17. DO NOT KILL THE GOOSE. The bosses are trained as to which plays to look for. You got away with it because you were betting red chips. If you keep finding loaders, you won't be betting red for long!

In many states in the U.S., you actually have a legal right to refuse to give back money once it's in your stack. However, if they ask; you should give it back every single time, unless you don't mind them barring you from future play at that casino; because that's exactly what they'll do.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#4
creeping panther said:
You had a great experience there.

Props to you for being so alert.

Now play the dealers. Just keep cool, don't go over the top.

NO, you always give the money back, never hassle them about that.

CP
heh, heh that was an interesting story.
like, that's the sort of stuff i'm just learning about.
like it would really be interesting to discuss this stuff more.
definitely there are some points that could be discussed about this story.
thing is maybe that's not such a good idea.
what ever, discussion on this sort of stuff at the bash would be cool.:eyepatch:
edit: can definitely relate to the heart pounding, lol, like a stealthy predator ready to pounce.
 

wwcd

Well-Known Member
#5
Sucker said:
And you DID go over the top.

Never double 9 when the dealer's showing a ten. Never soft double vs. a ten. NEVER hit hard 17. DO NOT KILL THE GOOSE. The bosses are trained as to which plays to look for. You got away with it because you were betting red chips. If you keep finding loaders, you won't be betting red for long!

In many states in the U.S., you actually have a legal right to refuse to give back money once it's in your stack. However, if they ask; you should give it back every single time, unless you don't mind them barring you from future play at that casino; because that's exactly what they'll do.
You're right on that one, but this was the first time, and I was about to leave as I stayed too long for the day and had a headache from the smoke. And that dealer has been there for a long time, so I wanted to leave, before she leaves.

Probably because of my lousy red chip, the dealer didn't even ask me again. When she was turning my card up, she even cheered for me, "come on, be there" type stuff. And she didn't yell to the pit "doubling 9 vs 10". So, yes, I got lucky and will need to learn more about what to do, and what not to do. Thanks for the advice.
 
#6
Sucker

Sucker said:
And you DID go over the top.

Never double 9 when the dealer's showing a ten. Never soft double vs. a ten. NEVER hit hard 17. DO NOT KILL THE GOOSE. The bosses are trained as to which plays to look for. You got away with it because you were betting red chips. If you keep finding loaders, you won't be betting red for long!

In many states in the U.S., you actually have a legal right to refuse to give back money once it's in your stack. However, if they ask; you should give it back every single time, unless you don't mind them barring you from future play at that casino; because that's exactly what they'll do.
You said, "In many states of the U.S.", this gent was in a NA casino, you do what you are asked, or told...there,,, Kemo sabi.:laugh:

I often see the 9 vs. 10 double and soft doubling all over the map.....hit hard 17, well I for sure have done it, but that is one call when HCing I agree one should not make. Of course I play many LS games, so I have other options available, other than hit or stand.:)

Regards,
CP
 

Jack_Black

Well-Known Member
#7
creeping panther said:
You said, "In many states of the U.S.", this gent was in a NA casino, you do what you are asked, or told...there,,, Kemo sabi.:laugh:

I often see the 9 vs. 10 double and soft doubling all over the map.....hit hard 17, well I for sure have done it, but that is one call when HCing I agree one should not make. Of course I play many LS games, so I have other options available, other than hit or stand.:)

Regards,
CP
I'm sure there can be instances of hitting hard 17 and getting away with it. If ploppies can get away with, why can't a HCer? Hell, I've seen ploppies double on A9, 3,2 and all other sorts of stupid ship.
 

pooptarts92

Well-Known Member
#8
the dealer paying your losing double reminds me of one time a dealer pushed my 17 vs her 18, quickly scooped the cards, and I said nothing. normally i'd say something as i used to believe in karma with blackjack, but IMO i've lost enough with my negative streaks to them that i didn't care lol.
 

NightStalker

Well-Known Member
#9
Jack_Black said:
I'm sure there can be instances of hitting hard 17 and getting away with it. If ploppies can get away with, why can't a HCer? Hell, I've seen ploppies double on A9, 3,2 and all other sorts of stupid ship.
Plops don't win money. Plop winning big money and playing his plop strategy- which is getting right mostly will definitely be kicked out soon..
 
#10
pooptarts92 said:
the dealer paying your losing double reminds me of one time a dealer pushed my 17 vs her 18, quickly scooped the cards, and I said nothing. normally i'd say something as i used to believe in karma with blackjack, but IMO i've lost enough with my negative streaks to them that i didn't care lol.
Glad you've seen the light! Don't tell them s**t! You have no responsibility to report their mistakes. Casinos are pretty evil, take as much money as you can without actually cheating (and some will argue to cheat too... Not me, I'm too pretty for jail) :)
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#11
RightClawSouth said:
Glad you've seen the light! Don't tell them s**t! You have no responsibility to report their mistakes. Casinos are pretty evil, take as much money as you can without actually cheating (and some will argue to cheat too... Not me, I'm too pretty for jail) :)
Yeah, I hear Big Bubba is looking for a cell mate! View attachment 6853
 

Attachments

#12
RE: Right Claw South: Wow, a lobster magnet reference in 2010! Don't take offense to that, I just literally haven't seen/thought about that for I don't know, 8 years?

Anyway, Jack Black commented that civilians must get away with this move very often, which is true. The problem is that if you're playing a game like this, you want to minimize the things that will cause the pit to look at you closely. If you hit hard 17, they will pay attention; if you're obviously a loser, they might lay off a bit, but if you're consistently winning with oddly accurate "hunches," it won't take them long to figure out what you're up to. Taking a hit by standing on a known loser with hard 17 costs you a little, but it's not nearly what it costs you when the boss gives you the boot.
 

WRX

Well-Known Member
#13
NightStalker said:
Plops don't win money.
WHAAAT?

A ploppy is almost as likely to have a winning session as the best counter. In the short run, variance dominates expectation in determining results.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#14
WRX said:
WHAAAT?

A ploppy is almost as likely to have a winning session as the best counter.
Not the average ploppy IMO who does not even play decent BS. And not even the average ploppy if the last three years is any indication. While I may have serious losses from time to time, the number of winning sessions is vastly greater than the number of losing sessions. No contest. The second part I agree with, that is, "in the short run, variance [does] dominate...expectation in determining results." And that is mainly because along comes one of those wildly wide swings of variance to wipe out the last six or seven session wins. But session for session, the counter has it hands down; it's not even close IMHO.
 
#15
aslan said:
Not the average ploppy IMO who does not even play decent BS. And not even the average ploppy if the last three years is any indication. While I may have serious losses from time to time, the number of winning sessions is vastly greater than the number of losing sessions. No contest. The second part I agree with, that is, "in the short run, variance [does] dominate...expectation in determining results." And that is mainly because along comes one of those wildly wide swings of variance to wipe out the last six or seven session wins. But session for session, the counter has it hands down; it's not even close IMHO.
THis is kind of proving aslans point

yesterday i went to a store with some friends i played very well and made about 180 (came in with 200) pretty satisfying night (for me atleast)

Then after a while we were sitting in slots by the high stakes room just sitting. We decided to go in cause we saw to guys our age (which is very uncommon for our high stakes room) the eached pooled 50 for a combined 100 at a 25 dollar minimum table. ok you think they lost in the first 10 minutes?? Wrong these two were playing the worst BS ive ever seen they even asked my friends what to do they told them the wrong thing and they still wwon.

Those two ended up winning 500+ :confused: So that kind of proves the power (IN THE SHORT RUN) of variance
 
#16
I think an important point is being missed here. Civilians and counters will have wild swings where the win and lose large amounts regardless of whether their play is correct or not. Someone doing things like hitting hard 17s when they know (because they have information telling them so) they will lose if they don't is different. If a player is consistently winning by making such blatantly atrocious moves, the pit will quickly figure out that they're not simply a bad player that's getting lucky.
 

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#17
Lonesome Gambler said:
If a player is consistently winning by making such blatantly atrocious moves, the pit will quickly figure out that they're not simply a bad player that's getting lucky.
And I'm simply AMAZED at the number of otherwise intelligent professionals who can play for YEARS and still not understand this.:confused:
 
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