Blackjack and Card Counting Forums - BlackjackInfo.com

  #11  
Old May 2nd, 2010, 08:19 AM
Mr. T Mr. T is offline
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Singapore
Posts: 549
Default

These are 2 very different types of BJ.
The ones played in Macau and MBS are with American rules. The one that is played in RWS is with European rules. They have different BS.
The MBS BJ has the ES10 added based on the American rules. It cannot be superimposed on the European BJ. For instance ES10 of 0.24% is based on the difference in BS of doubling 11 vs 10 whereas the European rules is to hit
11 vs 10. So for European rules the advantage of ES10 is less than 0.24%. In other words ES10 is not as valuable for European rules. The Advantage in ES10 is also less because you do not split 8"s against 10 and 11.
What the actual HA is with Surrender in RWS I really don't know. Perhaps you want to sent your question to the Wizard of Odds.

Last edited by Mr. T; May 2nd, 2010 at 08:27 AM.
  #12  
Old May 2nd, 2010, 12:48 PM
nc-tom nc-tom is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 246
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessplayer View Post
These are the rules at Marina Sands. If the rules are followed, the player according to the engine here states player will have 0.14 ADvantage.

http://app.cra.gov.sg/public/www/download.ashx?id=176

The rules are : Split up to 4 hands, double on any cards, ENHC, DAS, Surrender on any cards(Read 3.4. However, compare to 3.11),And Splits and double loses mere original if dealer has BJ(3.10 and 3.14),
Dont all the BJ games in Macau use CSM? Was that figured into your HA estimate?
  #13  
Old May 2nd, 2010, 07:18 PM
StudiodeKadent StudiodeKadent is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 333
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. T View Post
These are 2 very different types of BJ.
The ones played in Macau and MBS are with American rules. The one that is played in RWS is with European rules. They have different BS.
The MBS BJ has the ES10 added based on the American rules. It cannot be superimposed on the European BJ. For instance ES10 of 0.24% is based on the difference in BS of doubling 11 vs 10 whereas the European rules is to hit
11 vs 10. So for European rules the advantage of ES10 is less than 0.24%. In other words ES10 is not as valuable for European rules. The Advantage in ES10 is also less because you do not split 8"s against 10 and 11.
What the actual HA is with Surrender in RWS I really don't know. Perhaps you want to sent your question to the Wizard of Odds.
You make sense. There is obviously an interaction effect there between ENHC and ES10.

But would it really increase the house edge so much as to make an estimate of "0.31% to 0.4%" completely wrong? I'd say the interaction effect would definetly make my estimate of 0.33% an underestimate, but I don't think the house edge of the game would be greater than 0.4%.

MBS still has the better game, obviously.

So RWS will get the tourist market, MBS gets the real gamblers, perhaps? MBS can certainly afford to crank up their house edges without losing too much business. I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nc-tom View Post
Dont all the BJ games in Macau use CSM? Was that figured into your HA estimate?
The difference a CSM makes to a 6 deck game is a drop of 0.02% in the house edge. On a 4 deck game it makes a difference of a drop of 0.035% in the house edge

I'm not sure if I took that into consideration, but generally I use the "theoretical" figures on the Wizard Basic Strategy calculator (which assume shuffle after every hand, i.e. CSM) as my basic house edge. So it has probably been taken partly into account.

Regardless, I think it is far to estimate the RWS game as 0.35% to 0.40% (I'm revising up due to the interaction effect Mr T pointed out), and the MBS game as 0.16%. From a cynical viewpoint I'd expect the MBS house edge to rise... if they changed to ENHC they'd still have Singapore's lowest basic strategy house edge for BJ and still get plenty of customers.
  #14  
Old May 2nd, 2010, 08:19 PM
chessplayer chessplayer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 96
Default

I do not get how doubling of 11 vs 10 will affect ES10.

Alsso,given you ES when you have 16 vs 10 in both cases, the advantage of ES 10 in both should be identical.



For instance, I went to add 0.16 (Macau's game as a base)+0.09 Double on merely 9,10,11+ENHC Splitting 0.03+ ENHC 0.08+0.01 For Splitting to less than 4, I get 0.16+0.09+0.03+0.08+0.01 =0.37. The odds above are gotten fromthe end of the page at http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. T View Post
It cannot be superimposed on the European BJ. For instance ES10 of 0.24% is based on the difference in BS of doubling 11 vs 10 whereas the European rules is to hit
11 vs 10. So for European rules the advantage of ES10 is less than 0.24%. In other words ES10 is not as valuable for European rules. The Advantage in ES10 is also less because you do not split 8"s against 10 and 11.
What the actual HA is with Surrender in RWS I really don't know. Perhaps you want to sent your question to the Wizard of Odds.
  #15  
Old May 3rd, 2010, 04:29 AM
StudiodeKadent StudiodeKadent is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 333
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessplayer View Post

For instance, I went to add 0.16 (Macau's game as a base)+0.09 Double on merely 9,10,11+ENHC Splitting 0.03+ ENHC 0.08+0.01 For Splitting to less than 4, I get 0.16+0.09+0.03+0.08+0.01 =0.37. The odds above are gotten fromthe end of the page at http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack
You should subtract about 0.04% from that. The game is 4 decks rather than 6, and the CSM dealing has a greater effect against the house edge at a lower number of decks. See http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix10.html

ES10 is used in 4 situations. 14, 15, 16 vs. Dealer 10, and 16 vs. Dealer 9.

IIRC, these plays are the same regardless of hole card rule. You surrender a pair of 7's or 8's against a 10 regardless of whether or not the casino has ENHC or OBO.

So I retract my former statement. The plays changed by ENHC (i.e. "do not split or double against a dealer 10 or ace") don't change when the player should use early surrender. Chessplayer seems to be correct... I don't see an interaction effect.

And in that case I'm going to revert to my earlier estimate of the RWS house edge as 0.33%.
  #16  
Old May 3rd, 2010, 08:28 AM
chessplayer chessplayer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 96
Default

IN RWS, resplitting of ACes is allowed. You then get a figure lower than your 0.33


Quote:
Originally Posted by StudiodeKadent View Post
You should subtract about 0.04% from that. The game is 4 decks rather than 6, and the CSM dealing has a greater effect against the house edge at a lower number of decks. See http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix10.html

ES10 is used in 4 situations. 14, 15, 16 vs. Dealer 10, and 16 vs. Dealer 9.

IIRC, these plays are the same regardless of hole card rule. You surrender a pair of 7's or 8's against a 10 regardless of whether or not the casino has ENHC or OBO.

So I retract my former statement. The plays changed by ENHC (i.e. "do not split or double against a dealer 10 or ace") don't change when the player should use early surrender. Chessplayer seems to be correct... I don't see an interaction effect.

And in that case I'm going to revert to my earlier estimate of the RWS house edge as 0.33%.
  #17  
Old May 3rd, 2010, 08:36 AM
StudiodeKadent StudiodeKadent is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 333
Default

Resplitting aces IS allowed? To three hands I assume?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessplayer View Post
IN RWS, resplitting of ACes is allowed. You then get a figure lower than your 0.33
  #18  
Old May 3rd, 2010, 08:55 AM
chessplayer chessplayer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 96
Default

Yes. I have seen it myself. Though by default they draw 1 card after split, unless additional card is ACE. It is in the rules in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StudiodeKadent View Post
Resplitting aces IS allowed? To three hands I assume?
  #19  
Old May 3rd, 2010, 09:02 AM
StudiodeKadent StudiodeKadent is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 333
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessplayer View Post
Yes. I have seen it myself. Though by default they draw 1 card after split, unless additional card is ACE. It is in the rules in this thread.
Understand. In that case the House Edge drops to 0.28% approx
  #20  
Old June 27th, 2010, 08:04 PM
popcorn popcorn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 8
Default What percentage of tables use csm there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessplayer View Post
These are the rules at Marina Sands. If the rules are followed, the player according to the engine here states player will have 0.14 ADvantage.

http://app.cra.gov.sg/public/www/download.ashx?id=176

The rules are : Split up to 4 hands, double on any cards, ENHC, DAS, Surrender on any cards(Read 3.4. However, compare to 3.11),And Splits and double loses mere original if dealer has BJ(3.10 and 3.14),
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:57 AM.


Forum Software vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005-2011 Bayview Strategies LLC