Spanish 21 with Early Surrender

S

San

Member
#1
#1
Hi,

I visited my local casino today and found that the casino offers Spanish 21 with Early Surrender against both Ten and Ace (ENHC, H17).

I checked the Wizard of Odds website and found the following house edge for Spanish 21

Dealer hits on soft 17, redoubling allowed: -0.42%

And for Early Surrender against Ace and Ten, the effect on house edge is
Against Ace +0.39
Against Ten +0.24

So the house edge would be -0.42+0.39+0.24=0.21%

The only exception to the rule is that splitting ACEs only receives one card. Double double and hit after splitting Aces are not allowed.

Is the casino offering a +EV game or did I do the math wrong? Hope someone could help me.

Chisan
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
Yeppers, you are being conned all right.

The Modified split Aces rule is severely ruinous.

That rule exists at Mohegan Sun in Connecticut.
I have not heard of it being in place anywhere else.

The cost to you is a startling .29%

from http://wizardofodds.com/spanish21

"No Draw to Split Aces: At the Mohegan Sun drawing to split aces is NOT allowed. The effect of this rule is to increase the house edge by 0.29%."

I have never seen ENHC in Spanish21 — but that would almost morph the game into one of the worst forms of Australian Pontoon.

You have NOT accounted for the enhancement of the House Advantage from this.

WHERE did you find the following ?

"And for Early Surrender against Ace and Ten, the effect on house edge is
Against Ace +0.39
Against Ten +0.24
So the house edge would be -0.42+0.39+0.24=0.21%"

You do NOT add .24% to .39% BUT you use .39% for true Early Surrender and .24% for ES vs. 10.

Presuming that your .39% is correct you must subtract the .29% for the crippled Split Aces leaving .10%. Unfortunately, the use of the ENHC procedure costs you a lot more than .10%

As such, the player is a net loser with these rules, compared to the commonplace 6 deck Span21 H17 redouble game.
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#4
#4
I don't agree, if the Spanish 21 tradition of drawn 21's being automatic winners is preserved in this game, the ENHC should be no trouble at all. Early surrender is more than enough to overcome it. In other words, if a drawn 21 beats a dealer BJ (because the dealer does not yet know he has a BJ) and especially if you modify your play strategy to account for this rule it seems like a pretty good game.

I believe you do add the two values for ES vs 10 and A in this case. The value will be slightly less because of the 10's missing from the Spanish pack.
 
S

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
FLASH1296 said:
Standing corrected re: Early Surrender; I (humbly) apologize for my lapse in careful <ratiocination>. :whip:
Click to expand...
I'm very impressed. The fact that you know what that word means; more than makes up for the next one hundred errors that you may make in the future; at least in MY book. :)
 
S

San

Member
#7
#7
To daddybo,

Yes, the game is in South Korea that I mentioned before. The player may hit, re-double(up to three times), or surrender(double rescue) after doubling down.

I'm posting the rules in more details,

1. 8 Spnaish Decks
2. Early surrender, against Ace and T.
3. Double after split allowed.
4. Re-splitting aces is allowed, but only receive one card.
5. A player 21 always wins.
6. Player blackjack beats dealer blackjack.
7. Player may NOT double on any number of cards. Player may redouble, but if he doesn't double on the first 2 cards, he can't double later.
9. Player may NOT hit and double down after splitting aces.
10. Player may surrender after doubling, known as "double down rescue." The player forfeits an amount equal to his original bet.
11. A five-card 21 pays 3 to 2. Bonus IS honored after doubling or splitting.
12. A 6-7-8 or 7-7-7 of mixed suits pays 3 to 2, of the same suit pays 2 to 1, and of spades pays 3 to 1. These bonuses are honored after doubling or splitting.
13. Player may either Hit, ReDouble, Surrender(double rescue) or Stand after Doubling Down.

By the way, I don't see them splitting Aces. Since they can hit and re-double after double down, they just double down Ace pair against dealer small card.

I think it might be a +EV game but not sure. Hope someone could me.

Chisanchen
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
rule #7 is NOT standard for Spanish21.

Forbidding doubles with ≥ 3 or more cards is probably pretty costly.

In Katarina Walkers book she mentions some oddities in Asian forms of Spanish21 & Pontoon.

rule #8 has piqued my nascent curiosity re: this variant (with E.S.)
 
M

MGP

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
Hi,

I assumed the DDR is early. All bonuses are assumed to be lost to a dealer BJ. Player BJ does beat the dealer BJ though.

My CA doesn't allow hit after doubling or 5-card bonuses after doubling but does the latter after splits. There was no mention of 6 or more card 21 bonuses or 777 bonuses against a dealer upcard of 7. It does do everything else.

The EVs of the post-double 5-card bonus and allowing hitting after doubling are very unlikely to come close to overcoming the negative ev.

Code: 
N-Card Strategy
Net Game EV:  -0.158037348400474%


Total Dependent Hard Hands
             2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        T        A    
4           --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --    
5           --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --    
6            H        H        H       --       --        H        H        H        H        H    
7            H        H        H       --       --        H        H        H        H        H    
8            H        H       D3H      --       --        H        H        H        H        H    
9            H       D3H      D3H      --       --        H        H        H        H        H    
10          D3H      D3H      D3H      --       --       D3H      D3H       H        H        H    
11          D3H      D3H      D3H      --       --       D3H      D3H      D3H       H        H    
12           H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H    
13           H        H        H        H       S4H       H        H        H        H        H    
14           H        H       S4H       S        S        H        H        H        H       R3H   
15          S4H       S        S        S        S        H        H        H        H       R3H   
16           S        S        S        S        S        H        H        H       R3H      R3H   
17           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S       R3H   
18           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
19           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
20           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
21           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    


Total Dependent Soft Hands
             2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        T        A    
12          --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --    
13           H       D3H      D3H      D3H      D3H       H        H        H        H        H    
14           H       D3H      D3H      D3H      D3H       H        H        H        H        H    
15           H        H       D3H      D3H      D3H       H        H        H        H        H    
16           H        H       D3H      D3H      D3H       H        H        H        H        H    
17           H        H       D3H      D3H      D3H       H        H        H        H        H    
18          S4H       S       D3S      D3S      D3S       S        S        H        H        H    
19           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
20           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
21           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    


Split Hands
             2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        T        A    
1, 1        PH       PD       PD       PD       PD       PH       PH       PH       PH        H    
2, 2        PH       PH       PH        D        D       PH       PH        H        H        H    
3, 3        PH        H       PH        D        D       PH       PH        H        H        H    
4, 4         H        H        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
5, 5         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H        H    
6, 6         H        H        H       PH       PH        H        H        H        H        H    
7, 7        PH       PH       PH       PS       PS       PH        H        H        H        R    
8, 8        PS       PS       PS       PS       PS       PH       PH       PH        R        R    
9, 9         S       PS       PS       PS       PS        S       PS       PS        S        S    
10, 10       S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    


2-Card Hard Hands
             2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        T        A    
2, 3         H        H        H        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
2, 4         H        H        H        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
2, 5         H        H        H        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
3, 4         H        H        H        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
2, 6         H        H        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
3, 5         H        H        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
2, 7         H        D        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
3, 6         H        D        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
4, 5         H        D        D        D        D        D        H        H        H        H    
2, 8         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H        H    
3, 7         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H        H    
4, 6         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H        H    
2, 9         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H    
3, 8         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H    
4, 7         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H    
5, 6         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H    
2, 10        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H    
3, 9         H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H    
4, 8         H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H    
5, 7         H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H    
3, 10        H        H        H        H        S        H        H        H        H        H    
4, 9         H        H        H        H        S        H        H        H        H        H    
5, 8         H        H        H        H        S        H        H        H        H        H    
6, 7         H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H    
4, 10        H        H        S        S        S        H        H        H        H        R    
5, 9         H        H        S        S        S        H        H        H        H        R    
6, 8         H        H        H        S        S        H        H        H        H        R    
5, 10        S        S        S        S        S        H        H        H        H        R    
6, 9         S        S        S        S        S        H        H        H        H        R    
7, 8         H        S        S        S        S        H        H        H        H        R    
6, 10        S        S        S        S        S        H        H        H        R        R    
7, 9         S        S        S        S        S        H        H        H        R        R    
7, 10        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        R    
8, 9         S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        R    
8, 10        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
9, 10        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    


2-Card Soft Hands
             2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        T        A    
A, 2         H        D        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
A, 3         H        D        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
A, 4         H        H        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
A, 5         H        H        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
A, 6         H        H        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
A, 7         S        S       DS       DS       DS        S        S        H        H        H    
A, 8         S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
A, 9         S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
A, 10        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S
Sincerely,
MGP
 
S

San

Member
#10
#10
MGP said:
Hi,

I assumed the DDR is early. All bonuses are assumed to be lost to a dealer BJ. Player BJ does beat the dealer BJ though.

My CA doesn't allow hit after doubling or 5-card bonuses after doubling but does the latter after splits. There was no mention of 6 or more card 21 bonuses or 777 bonuses against a dealer upcard of 7. It does do everything else.

The EVs of the post-double 5-card bonus and allowing hitting after doubling are very unlikely to come close to overcoming the negative ev.

Net Game EV: -0.158037348400474%

Sincerely,
MGP
Click to expand...
Hi,

Thanks. -0.158% sounds reasonable to me. I don't really think casino would offer a +EV game.

Regarding the assumption,

1. Yes, the DDR is also Early.
2. All bonus (777, 678) BEAT dealer BJ. The dealer will pay the player as soon as the player hit the bonus, including double down.
3. There's no 777+dealer upcard7 super bonus. There's no 6 card or 7 card 21 bonus. Just 5 card 21 bonus.
4. Re-double up to 3 times. For example, for A2 against 6, first double down get an ACE, then second DD get an Ace again, and you may DD for the third time. I think this is the reason why the players in my local casino don't split Aces against 5 or 6, they just double down.

Chisanchen
 
S

San

Member
#11
#11
Hi,

I forgot to mention that the game allows Multiple Card Early Surrender. That is, if the player get 3- or 4-card 16 against Ace, he may surrender.

Chisanchen
 
M

MGP

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
These extras make it a positive EV game. I assumed surrender after split and refoubling after split allowed.

Code: 
N-Card CD Strategy
Net Game EV:   0.178718589815779%


Total Dependent Hard Hands
             2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        T        A    
4           --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --    
5           --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --    
6            H        H        H       --       --        H        H        H        H        H    
7            H        H        H       --       --        H        H        H        H        H    
8            H        H       D3H      --       --        H        H        H        H        H    
9            H       D3H      D3H      --       --        H        H        H        H        H    
10          D3H      D3H      D3H      --       --       D3H      D3H       H        H        H    
11          D3H      D3H      D3H      --       --       D3H      D3H      D3H       H        H    
12           H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H    
13           H        H        H        H       S4H       H        H        H        H        H    
14           H        H       S4H       S        S        H        H        H        H        H    
15          S4H       S        S        S        S        H        H        H        H       R4H   
16           S        S        S        S        S        H        H        H       R4H       R    
17           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        R    
18           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
19           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
20           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
21           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    


Total Dependent Soft Hands
             2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        T        A    
12          --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --       --    
13           H       D3H      D3H      D3H      D3H       H        H        H        H        H    
14           H       D3H      D3H      D3H      D3H       H        H        H        H        H    
15           H        H       D3H      D3H      D3H       H        H        H        H        H    
16           H        H       D3H      D3H      D3H       H        H        H        H        H    
17           H        H       D3H      D3H      D3H       H        H        H        H        H    
18          S4H      S4H      S4H      S4H      S4H       S       S4H       H        H        H    
19           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
20           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
21           S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    


Split Hands
             2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        T        A    
1, 1        PH       PD       PD       PD       PD       PD       PH       PH       PH        H    
2, 2        PH       PH       PH       PD       PD       PH       PH        H        H        H    
3, 3        PH       PH       PH       PD       PD       PH       PH        H        H        H    
4, 4         H        H        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
5, 5         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H        H    
6, 6         H        H       PH       PH       PH        H        H        H        H        H    
7, 7        PH       PH       PH       PS       PS       PH        H        H        H        H    
8, 8        PS       PS       PS       PS       PS       PH       PH       PH       PR        R    
9, 9         S       PS       PS       PS       PS        S       PS       PS        S        S    
10, 10       S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    


2-Card Hard Hands
             2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        T        A    
2, 3         H        H        H        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
2, 4         H        H        H        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
2, 5         H        H        H        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
3, 4         H        H        H        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
2, 6         H        H        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
3, 5         H        H        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
2, 7         H        D        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
3, 6         H        D        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
4, 5         H        D        D        D        D        D        H        H        H        H    
2, 8         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H        H    
3, 7         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H        H    
4, 6         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H        H    
2, 9         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H    
3, 8         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H    
4, 7         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H    
5, 6         D        D        D        D        D        D        D        D        H        H    
2, 10        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H    
3, 9         H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H    
4, 8         H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H    
5, 7         H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H    
3, 10        H        H        H        H        S        H        H        H        H        H    
4, 9         H        H        H        H        S        H        H        H        H        H    
5, 8         H        H        H        H        S        H        H        H        H        H    
6, 7         H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H        H    
4, 10        H        H        S        S        S        H        H        H        H        H    
5, 9         H        H        S        S        S        H        H        H        H        H    
6, 8         H        H        H        S        S        H        H        H        H        H    
5, 10        S        S        S        S        S        H        H        H        H        R    
6, 9         S        S        S        S        S        H        H        H        H        R    
7, 8         H        S        S        S        S        H        H        H        H        H    
6, 10        S        S        S        S        S        H        H        H        R        R    
7, 9         S        S        S        S        S        H        H        H        R        R    
7, 10        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        R    
8, 9         S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        R    
8, 10        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
9, 10        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    


2-Card Soft Hands
             2        3        4        5        6        7        8        9        T        A    
A, 2         H        D        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
A, 3         H        D        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
A, 4         H        H        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
A, 5         H        H        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
A, 6         H        H        D        D        D        H        H        H        H        H    
A, 7         S        S       DS       DS       DS        S        S        H        H        H    
A, 8         S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
A, 9         S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S    
A, 10        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S        S
 
S

San

Member
#13
#13
Hi MGP,

Yes, multiple card early surrender and redoubling after splitting is allowed.

Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it. I think I'll give it a try.

Chisanchen
 
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