Diet systems & card counting systems

[bernard perlman]

Question:What do diet plans and Blackjack card counting systems have in common?
Answer: They all work. Some just a little better than others.
Card counting systems that include aces in the count are more powerful in finding favorable situations than the systems that count aces as zero. On the other hand, the systems that count aces as zero, are stronger for making playing decisions.
Some Pro's prefer to keep a side count of aces and use a count that assigns a value of zeros to aces. I developed a count that I've been using for 25 years now and I'm very comfortable with it.
I use a three level point count that I developed by simplifying Thorpe's Ultimate point count. I count aces as -2 so this count is as good as it gets at finding favorable suituations but leaves something to be desired when it comes to how to play your hand.
In order to compensate for this, I use a simplfied tens count concurrently with the point count. The end result is I get the best of both worlds. By comparing my true point count to my ten count I get to make the best possible decisions in how to play my hand. As an added bonus, my system plays perfect insurance.
Pro's that know me love to play at my table because they get perfect insurance by just following my lead when the dealer has an ace showing.
Learning to play two counts concurrently takes practice but I have many clients that are doing it and are doing quite well. It takes about 100 hours of practice for a newby to get up to speed. Experienced counters can get up to speed in about 20 hours.
Steve@blackjackpokermentor.com

[jetace]

Only 12 payments of 9999.99!!!

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by bernard perlman

The end result is I get the best of both worlds. By comparing my true point count to my ten count I get to make the best possible decisions in how to play my hand. As an added bonus, my system plays perfect insurance.

So what is the BC and PE of your system? We know that the IC is 1.0, but is your system really worth the extra effort?

-Sonny-

[zengrifter]

Originally Posted by Sonny

So what is the BC and PE of your system? We know that the IC is 1.0, but is your system really worth the extra effort?

-Sonny-

It might be easier to detirmine the SCORE, by first simming both and then combining the best equivalents of both pursuant to some formula, and then subtractiong a reasonable percentage for player error.

This reminds me of similar debates over the years: like whether two people combined as a 'super-system' at one table are stronger than two HiLoLite players combined at seperate tables (NO); or the counter who can count two shoes simultaneously with KO and then wong-in on one vs. the same counter employing Advanced Omega with maultiparameter adjusts for As/7s/8s counting just one shoe at a time (the KO two shoe player wins hands down).

So, we'll see. I will say this: If I could keep two simultaneous counts as described... I WOULD! zg

[E-town-guy]

He never explained his simplified ten count, probably comes with the price of admission.

Most counters on here, including the pros, are here to help eachother out at no cost. Help someone out this time, learn something new the next time.

[zengrifter]

Originally Posted by E-town-guy

He never explained his simplified ten count, probably comes with the price of admission.

Most counters on here, including the pros, are here to help eachother out at no cost. Help someone out this time, learn something new the next time.

The simplified tens-count is typically a +/- wherein 10s=-2 and all others= +1, or similar. zg

[steve mitchell]

Hey guys. I'm not selling anything. Rather than use the Thorpe ten count which is 36 non tens to 16 tens (it entails keep track of two counters) in a one deck game, I use the simplified ten count, only one counter) which as Zen said is: tens count as -2 and non tens count as + 1.
The ratio of tens to non tens off the top in a one deck game is 36 non tens / 16 tens which is 2.25. If you remove 4 non tens off the top of the deck your ratio is now 32,16 or 2.0. Slightly favorable and an exactly even bet for insurance.
I could simply start at zero with the tens count and when it gets to +4 regardless of where I am in the deck I know that the ratio is 2.0. I choose to start at 16 instead of zero because I don't want to deal with negative numbers. When the count reaches 20, I'm at 2.0. Since I'm using a 3 level point count, dealing with 2 more counters or one more counter that can go negative is ,more than my humble brain can deal with.
when playing more than one deck, simply multiply the number of decks by 4 to get the factor. The factor in a two deck game is 4 x 2 decks = 8. I choose to start my tens count in a two deck game at 22. When it hits 30, I'm at 2.0.
Ok. Is it worth the trouble? To guys like Zen and I, we want to get all the best of it so it is. To others, simple is better. A simple point count is so easy. a child could learn to use and it plays a winning game.
So,Jetace, keep the $9999 and buy yourself a good used car.

[jetace]

If I had the 9999, I'd use it for my bankroll, and up my bets.

Having two counts, one being level three, I think you'd pretty much have to avoid the confusion with negative numbers. Keeping a side ace count is hard enough. Of course, with enough practice it is surprising what is possible.

I'm curious though, how many indexes do you have memorized to go along with your counts? That seems like quite a feat. Pretty impressive Mr. Perlman, I mean Mr. Mitchell, wait, not only do you have two counts, but two identities as well?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by steve mitchell

Ok. Is it worth the trouble? To guys like Zen and I, we want to get all the best of it so it is. To others, simple is better.

True, but there are much better ways to “get the best of it” at the tables. Using a super count like that will not increase your BC more than a few hundredths of a percent (if at all). It can increase your PE by a few tenths of a percent if used correctly, but that won’t add much to your win rate in multi-deck games. In fact, if it causes the player to play slower than it may actually decrease their overall win rate since they are playing less hands per hour.

If you want to increase your win rate by much more than a few tenths of a percent then there are much better things to do at the tables. Playing faster can give you a huge advantage and is very easy to do. Playing an extra 5 hands per hour can increase your win rate by 5%, which is much more than any extra side counting will do. Little tricks like ace cutting, sequencing/steering, and tracking can give you huge advantages over the casino in the range of 2-20%. Also, counting two adjacent tables (as ZG described) will increase your advantage dramatically (around 70% in many cases). If you use all your brainpower on keeping the count, you are missing out on so many opportunities at the tables. I think that is why most players stick with simple systems. They can add new techniques around it instead of upgrading to a more difficult counting-only strategy. There is no doubt that a super counting will “get the better of it” but to “get the BEST of it” sometimes involves diversifying and finding better advantage opportunities.

Hey ZenGrifter, didn’t you used to use a modified Hi-Opt II with a side count of sevens (along with the side count of aces) back in your early years? I remember you used to talk about multi-parameter strategies for a while. Have you found the switch to Zen more rewarding?

-Sonny-

[steve mitchell]

of course, hands per hour is a major component of a winning strategy. A pro, regardless of the counting system he employs can play his game without slowing down at all, flirt with the dealer and cocktail waitress, pick his nose and scratch his butt,and still pick up at least 1 big bet an hour, and maybe the cocktail waitress as well.
Simple may be better but it's interesting that Pro's that know me love to play at my table to get free insurance perks. I guess there are many out there that are always trying to get something for nothing.