Any advice?

[ScottH]

I just played blackjack in a casino for the first time. I only was flat-betting so that I could practice counting (using KO Preferred) without worrying about any heat or anything.

The rules are: 6 Decks, DAS, DOA, No Surrender, Dealer Hits on S17, Split up to 4 times. The penetration seemed really good. It was at least 75 percent every single shoe.

I was just wondering if anyone had any advice for playing this game. Thanks!

[zengrifter]

Yes - wong in at the pivot and go to 2u at the KC. Don't play the neg-counts. zg

[ScottH]

Originally Posted by zengrifter

Yes - wong in at the pivot and go to 2u at the KC. Don't play the neg-counts. zg

Wong in at the pivot? According to KO, at the pivot point we would have a max bet out. For KO using 6 decks the IRC is -20, the KC is -4, and the pivot point is +4. At what RC would I wong in at?

Now let's say they don't allow people to wong in. What would my expectation be playing all counts? Would this game even be worthwhile?

[Mikeaber]

I'm anxious to hear the response to this. Since you are playing nothing but positive conditions (-4 and greater) I would think that you could double your normal 2u bet at the KC and all subsequent bets on positive (>-4) hands. But ZG usually has a good reason for what he advises!

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by ScottH

Now let's say they don't allow people to wong in. What would my expectation be playing all counts?

Less than 1 unit per hour, probably closer to half of a unit per hour. If you can't backcount, don't play shoes.

Originally Posted by ScottH

Would this game even be worthwhile?

Not really. You might be able to squeeze 1 or maybe even 1.5 units per hour if you backcount aggressively, otherwise don't bother. You can watch the game and get some great casino practice, but don't play unless you can backcount. Save up your money for a trip to a better casino.

-Sonny-

[ScottH]

Originally Posted by Sonny

Less than 1 unit per hour, probably closer to half of a unit per hour. If you can't backcount, don't play shoes.



Not really. You might be able to squeeze 1 or maybe even 1.5 units per hour if you backcount aggressively, otherwise don't bother. You can watch the game and get some great casino practice, but don't play unless you can backcount. Save up your money for a trip to a better casino.

-Sonny-

So it wouldn't even be worth it exit-wonging, right? What kind of game would I need to play all counts? Like a 1 or 2 deck game?

I wish they would have mentioned that you make less than 1 unit per hour playing all counts in shoe games...

[Cass]

Originally Posted by ScottH

So it wouldn't even be worth it exit-wonging, right? What kind of game would I need to play all counts? Like a 1 or 2 deck game?

I wish they would have mentioned that you make less than 1 unit per hour playing all counts in shoe games...

If you spread 1-20 you will make more than that!

[ScottH]

Originally Posted by Cass

If you spread 1-20 you will make more than that!

I will make this casino my practice casino. I will spread 1-10 until I feel comfortable then I will go all out and spread 1-20 until I get banned. I think that's a good idea.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by ScottH

So it wouldn't even be worth it exit-wonging, right?

Exit Wonging will reduce your risk but won't do too much for your EV.

Originally Posted by ScottH

What kind of game would I need to play all counts? Like a 1 or 2 deck game?

Yeah, SD and DD games are fine for play-all. Even a well cut 4D game is playable. In general, shoe games require much more "cleverness" to be worthwhile.

Originally Posted by ScottH

I wish they would have mentioned that you make less than 1 unit per hour playing all counts in shoe games...

Check out Blackjack Attack Chapter 10: The World's Greatest Blackjack Simulation. Arnold Snyder's Beat the X-Deck books are also a good reference. The best approach will be to run your own simulations to find the EV and SD of different strategies. Try looking around on these sites for more info:

http://www.bjstats.com/bjsc.asp
http://www.card-counting.com/blackjack-data.htm

As Cass mentioned, a larger spread will increase your EV but will bring you more heat. The beauty of backcounting is that you can use a large spread without looking like it. If you are only playing +EV hands then you never need to bet your minimum bet. That alone will turn a 1:12 spread into a 2:12 spread, which looks like a 1:6 spread to the pit bosses. Playing only at +2 or greater might be a 4:12 spread which only looks like a 1:3 spread. Suddenly that 1:20 spread that was getting you so much heat has become a 4:20 spread (1:5 spread) that barely gets noticed. You are getting less heat, earning more money, and playing with much less risk (smaller bankroll!). That is where the shoe game really becomes a winner.

-Sonny-

[zengrifter]

Originally Posted by ScottH

Wong in at the pivot? According to KO, at the pivot point we would have a max bet out. For KO using 6 decks the IRC is -20, the KC is -4, and the pivot point is +4. At what RC would I wong in at?

OOPS - I said it backwards! And with that correction, its still just PRACTICE. Though you would be better served NOT PRACTICING IN CASINO - USE SOFTWARE. zg