first time hiding the cut

So there's this dealer I'm playing against who never realizes the cut card comes out. Every single shoe she's ready to deal again. But some asshole at the table pipes up and lets her know it's time to shuffle :flame: Thankfully most of the time it didn't matter. But I knew this was ripe for the picking.

Sure enough, we get to the "last" hand of a shoe. Hi-Lo true is good enough for me to be rocking the LL bet and the cut card is dealt to me. I casually put my hand over it, then when she looks at first base to take hits, I move my hand under the table. It's been there most of the night anyway (get your mind out of the gutter) so it didn't look suspicious.

She deals the next hand, and Mr. Taddle Tale doesn't say a word.

My next thought: ****, how to I get her to stop dealing?

A couple hands later, I've made 10-12 units since the cut came out, and I'm looking at a 14 vs. dealer Ace. The count is right at the insurance index. I discreetly get the card back on the table while taking insurance. The hand plays out, the count tanks from some ridic number of face cards coming out, and she shuffles up.

I leave It was almost as exciting as having first learned to count cards!

Asking For Trouble

Are you prepared to be backroomed by a zealous staff? Arrested for cheating? Barred? Risk physical injury during any of these events? Some casino security carry guns. I don't want anyone with a gun disliking me because they think I am a cheater.

A good AP does not have to resort to cheating, potentially cheating or take great physical risks.

Now would I have tried to draw attention away from cut card without touching it? Perhaps start a conversation, look at that! Perhaps

Unfortunately, as an AP we do take some risks of injury, detaining or harrasement. A way around that is to maybe never bet $100 and never win over $1,000 at a time. Even this is no guarantee, ask Shadroch.

good cards
:joker::whip:

Oh stop that, "reimagining" the cut card is not cheating. It is the dealer's job to know she has to shuffle after she pulls out the cut card. You're allowed to touch the cut card and if she needs to have it right in front of her to know she has to shuffle she is the one with the problem.

rr- if the count was right at the insurance point and I got 14 vs. A, I would have whipped the cut card out and said "WTF, you were supposed to shuffle!"

Yes; the desert around Las Vegas is just FULL of dead bodies of people who've been caught "stealing" those 50 cent cut cards from the casinos. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'm not sure I'd want the overheads seeing me introduce anything into the game. How would they know whats under the cut card? You might be using the CC to introduce a few Aces into the deck. Taking the cut card off the table seems to be more trouble than any possible reward.

Does Not Matter What I think

Does not matter what you think! It matters what the casinooooo staff thinks! Don't some of you guys talk about how security is reactionary and potentially dangerous? Automonk you talked about being concerned if security is showing off for a chick? Automonk you recently commented on a nasty barring?

Is the shady tactic worth a few extra hands in a high count? $5 or $10 bucks in ev? The time consumed by a barring will eat up that EV! What is the cost of losing this casino due to barring?

I don't like to play Russian roulette. I think whenever you are confronted by someone with a gun who does not like you, it's not a good thing and needs to be avoided.

Shadroch brings up a good point, they could just see you palm something. They may not be sure what, they may decide to start to watch and see and lookie they caught a counter! backed off, barred?

Also, my main point, an AP does not have to resort to shady tactics.

good cards
:joker::whip:

Perception of Events

It's not about stealing a cut card, it's about game manipulation and how the casinooooo staff would view it and does that lead to other situations.

good cards
:joker::whip:

Auto read again

He removes the cut card from the table, not moves it away to a different spot on the table, not places his hand on it. Not puts it behind his stack of chips. He moves it from the table! This is game manipulation is it not?

Also, read shadroch's post

good cards
:joker::whip:

Some Things for rrwoods to think about

Was this the last shoe of the night?
Where you playing rated?
Do you value this casino?
Will you be back soon?

Do you know of any press reports of people being arrested in casinos in your area?

Do you think you are good enough to win without questionable tactics? Think from the casinos point of view.

Some casinos may tolerate or not notice low level counters, this is something different.

Next time if you wish:
Use your hand to block the card
Start talking
Move card behind chip stack
Move card to another part of table
These are innocent moves and civilians would do them, a civilian would probably not remove card from the table.

But man, leave that thing on the table.

Has an AP ever been falsly arrested? or injured? I think the answer is yes!

If nothing happened you are probably fine to go back.

good cards
:joker::whip:

So? How are you manipulating the game by taking the cut card off the table? If someone asked me, I would just tell them I was rubbing it on my klootzak for good luck. But I can pass the cut card to anyone else who would like it.

It's About Appearances & Perceptions

Auto
I give you much more credit then this. The game is being manipulated by continuing play, by hiding the cut card!

Palming something on and off the table does not look good.

You will tell them this, when the reactionary security is surrounding you? When they have decided to bar you? Has anyone talked their way out of a barring?

I gave several alternatives that are much more innocent to keep play going, though probably not as effective.

Do you think it was worth it for rrwoods to do what he did? I do not!

You don't get it- who's job is it to decide when to play and when to shuffle? Certainly not mine. If extra rounds were dealt it is 100% the responsibility of the dealer.

If security is going to bar me, they are going to bar me, and if they barred people every time a cut card got handled funny and extra rounds were dealt they would be very busy. I get barred just for counting sometimes and I'm not planning on giving that up, out of fear of what security might do.

The cut card is an element of the game that patrons are allowed to handle and being able to do things with it is a tool of the AP.

I agree with AM on a couple of things wrt risk. I've put it under the table to touch my [whatever AM said] :laugh: and I also have put it behind a mess of cups and chips. I do believe the latter is more easily defensible, if by just a bit, as putting the CC out of my way (but on the table and in plain sight if you are looking) and forgetting it is just me being absent minded. I see very little downside in that.

In addition, I have seen ploppies do the same thing. Sometimes another player notices (I do if the count is poor), sometimes the dealer just keeps digging until he hits China. Gives everyone a good laugh. Supervisors don't seem to mind.

Having said all of that, if you are being evaluated and they see you pull any kind of stunt, be it holecarding or "forgetting" the CC, they may very well overreact I suppose . . .

It's possible actually taking it off the table was a bad idea. I don't know. I don't think it was though. Next time I'll probably just hide it behind my chips if'n I have enough of them.

Honestly I don't see the difference; cocktail napkins, chips, cups... the table... whatever we use to hide the cut, would it really matter? If the lions want to pounce, they'll pounce.

Definitely a good move on rare occasion. zg

Cut Card

How often does this chance even come up? I just haven't seen it. Guess it depends on where play.

On the Vegas strip a couple of weeks ago I was looking for this opportunity to show itself. Trouble was the dealers kept the cut card on there side of the table until the round was finished. This was at several strip casinos.

Where I've played (including strip) the dealer has tossed the CC to the player to receive the next real card. If that is 1st or 3d base, the dealer can easily miss the CC even if it is flat on the table. :eyepatch:

I've never seen that, although I must say I don't watch for it. Seems to me I'd wait to see what my cards were and then either keep quiet of call for a misdeal. At first base, you'd be able to see your first card, at a minimum before calling the dealer on their mistake.

Yes. In MY case; SEVERAL times.

Yes, and this is probably the best usage of this trick. You have to be really quick with your timing, though. If your first card is a bad one, you have to IMMEDIATELY stop the dealer. After a significant number of cards have come out, the dealer will call the floor over for a decision, at which point his decision will almost always be to play the hand out. (especially when he sees your big bet with a stiff hand in front of it; the dirty bass-terd! )