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Old August 11th, 2006, 12:51 AM
ortango ortango is offline
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Default Tells still possible from peeking devices?

I have a question for those who know... what does the dealer see when they put the hole card in the peeking device? Obviously these peekers have elimnated warp play (mostly) but what about tells?

I have been told that the peek device has eliminated tells, but since the dealer peeks on a 10 or A, the dealer must know if the hole is a 10, A, or all others, right? So can you get a tell from them?
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Old August 11th, 2006, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ortango
I have a question for those who know... what does the dealer see when they put the hole card in the peeking device? Obviously these peekers have elimnated warp play (mostly) but what about tells?

I have been told that the peek device has eliminated tells, but since the dealer peeks on a 10 or A, the dealer must know if the hole is a 10, A, or all others, right? So can you get a tell from them?
Tens and Aces have a mark on them, so when the dealer has a blackjack the peeking device has a red light that goes off. When the dealer doesn't have a blackjack the light turns green. So the dealer never actually looks at the card, in most cases.
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Old August 11th, 2006, 06:07 AM
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If the house uses a sight glass, where the dealer really sees the value of the card, then yes. I ask the dealer to flinch a little bit if its a big card.
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Old August 11th, 2006, 06:36 AM
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Most visual peeking devices used today work because of the location of the card rank in the corners of the cards.

The Face cards (10 - King) are designated with a value that is printed high in the corner on two corners (top left and bottom right and nothing on the other two corners). Aces are marked with the "A" in all four corners but only the top right and bottom left are high in the corner. All other cards are designated with their values printed lower.

The peeking device only "sees" the top part of the corner. Have you noticed that when they check under an exposed Ace that they turn the cards 90 degrees to the direction they check under a Face for an Ace? If the card they are looking for "isn't home" then they see nothing but white card. If it is "home" then they see the value. Because of this, if they look under a Face and the down card is not an Ace, then they see nothing to give away the value of the down card. Same thing when they look under an Ace...nothing there unless it's a Ten.
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Old August 11th, 2006, 10:28 AM
ortango ortango is offline
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Here is what I am understanding, there are two types of peekers, the types that are just mirrors that show the dealer if he has a 10 or A, and the type that just give a red or green light for no BJ/ or BJ. So lets break it down:

Green/red light machine: If a dealer peeks at his A or 10, and gets a red light, we can assume he does not a have a 10 or A respectively, and of course he will not peek with any other card. NO ADVANTAGE for the player.

Mirrors: Say the dealer peeks on and A. Now, if he does not have a 10, does he know if he has an Ace? Even if he does it is not a great hand. But say he peeks on a 10... if its not an Ace, does he know if its a 10 IN THE HOLE? If so that can be used for Tell play. So basically I still don't know the answer, does anyone know?
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Old August 11th, 2006, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ortango
Here is what I am understanding, and it is what I am hoping. I am guessing that there are two types of peekers, the types that are just mirrors that show you an indicator if its a blackjack, and the type that just give a red or green light for no BJ/ or BJ. So lets break it down:

Green/red light machine: If a dealer peeks at his A or 10, and gets a red light, we can assume he does not a have a 10 or A respectively, and of course he will not peek with any other card. NO ADVANTAGE for the player.

Mirrors: Say the dealer peeks on and A. Now, if he does not have a 10, does he know if he has an Ace? Even if he does it is not a great hand. But say he peeks on a 10... if its not an Ace, does he still know if its a 10 in the hole? If so that can be used for Tell play. So basically I still don't know the answer, I'm just pulling at straws.
No. He does not know. That is why the ACE have the "A" on the right side raised and the FACES are raised on the left side. When a Ten is dealt face up, they rotate the cards so that they are looking at the right corner of the down card so they will not see a TEN. Same thing with the ACE. They rotate the cards differently than with TENS so that they are looking at the left corner of the cards. They will see nothing unless there is a ten down.

There is no way to get a "tell" from the dealer with mirrored peeking mechanisms unless the dealer happens to rotate his cards incorrectly to peek.

Last edited by Mikeaber; August 11th, 2006 at 10:35 AM.
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Old August 17th, 2006, 11:17 PM
ortango ortango is offline
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thanks mike, I noticed they turn it when they check the Ace. I guess the only way would be if a newbie mistakenly checked without turning the cards.
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Old August 18th, 2006, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ortango View Post
thanks mike, I noticed they turn it when they check the Ace. I guess the only way would be if a newbie mistakenly checked without turning the cards.
Yes, I've seen that happen. But their procedure if practiced properly by the dealer, involves rotating the cards as soon as the dealer flips them. If a face is turned face up, then the dealer will rotate it so that the card is oriented "vertically" (short edge facing the players). If an ACE is turned face up, then the cards are immediately rotated so that they are horizontally oriented (long edge facing the players). If an offer of insurance is appropriate (and I've seen casinos even offer insurance on FACE CARDS!) it is made and then the dealer will insert the lower right corner of the two cards in the peeper.

Now, if you have a deck of "peepable" cards (cards that the casino uses) and you study them, then if a face was turned up and the dealer turned the cards horizontally as if it were an ACE, then he would see that there was a face down if there was one. You might get a read off of that.

This wouldn't happen enough to make much difference, but do be aware that it "could" happen and you might possibly get some sort of read off the dealer.

Much more often, I see advantage when dealers manually peek at the cards. Lots of good things can happen when they manually peek. Say a Face is turned up and the dealer peeks, pauses and then peeks again! If they do not turn a snapper, you have a pretty good chance of reading the down card as a FOUR because the top of the "4" is so similar to the top of an ACE. Obviously, if you are sitting with a hard-16, you are not going to hit it against the face.

Another ploy with a sloppy dealer that we can exploit is in reading "bent cards". They have to bend the cards every time a face or an ACE is flipped up. Think about the way a down card is bent. FACES and ACES dealt face up to the dealer will be higher in the center when later dealt face down! That might come in handy if you KNEW that a dealer's down card was a FACE.
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Old August 18th, 2006, 08:57 AM
ortango ortango is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeaber View Post
Much more often, I see advantage when dealers manually peek at the cards. Lots of good things can happen when they manually peek. Say a Face is turned up and the dealer peeks, pauses and then peeks again! If they do not turn a snapper, you have a pretty good chance of reading the down card as a FOUR because the top of the "4" is so similar to the top of an ACE. Obviously, if you are sitting with a hard-16, you are not going to hit it against the face.

Another ploy with a sloppy dealer that we can exploit is in reading "bent cards". They have to bend the cards every time a face or an ACE is flipped up. Think about the way a down card is bent. FACES and ACES dealt face up to the dealer will be higher in the center when later dealt face down! That might come in handy if you KNEW that a dealer's down card was a FACE.
Yep, the first, manual peeking is key for tells, and the second, warp play, is unfortunately rare because of the darn peek devices. For the tells, there are a ton of nuances you can read like in poker, gestures, body position and expressions.
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Old August 18th, 2006, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeaber View Post
Say a Face is turned up and the dealer peeks, pauses and then peeks again! If they do not turn a snapper, you have a pretty good chance of reading the down card as a FOUR because the top of the "4" is so similar to the top of an ACE.
Or if they do a “double peek” you can be sure that it is not a face card because face cards are so easy to spot. You don’t even need to know which face card because they are all worth 10 points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ortango View Post
For the tells, there are a ton of nuances you can read like in poker, gestures, body position and expressions.
You could come right out and ask them “Is it a ten?” Any parent can tell when their child is lying or hiding a secret (you know that quiet guilty look). Put those parenting skills to work!

-Sonny-
 

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