Getting forced out of the casino???

If someone is really good at counting cards, nobody will be able to tell. In fact, the only way the casino would suspect you, is by you winning large amounts of money...

But hold on. A total idiot could walking into a casino, sit down, and start winning big money just by luck alone. How can the casino really force you to leave just because you are winning??? You'd think it'd be illegal. The casino knows full-well that people can and do hit it big sometimes. Shouldn't they have to accept that? How can they just throw you out for winning???

Also, how much do you generally have to win before you start raising a red flag??? If I was able to win 8K at a $25 table, would they start to question me???

they'd definitly put the eye on you

they would probably wait to see a pattern before throwing you out. Then, depending on what they found out they would either:

a: throw you out, either if they found you counting or were suspicious in some other way that you were playing to an advantage.

b: comp you for something, thus helping to ensure you return and give them back their money, if they have considering you a non-threat.

If you are indeed counting, and win big money, can they actually take it away from you????

Generally no. Unless you are cheating...if you are only counting cards and not breaking any laws you should be fine. However, if they catch you counting refer to Scorcho's reply...

as black dog said, no, not unless you are cheating, matter of fact, I'm pretty sure it's illegal for them to withhold your chips unless you were cheating, so if they did so you may consider it in your best intrest to seek legal action.

This leads me to another thing I should probably mention. If you are counting and security approaches you wanting you to "come with them" DO NOT GO! This is called "back rooming" and is a very dreadful experience. One which you never, ever have to go through if you know what to do. So, if security asks you to "come with them" here is what you say:

"Am I under arrest?"

(they will say no)

"Then let me cash my chips then let me go."

if they say anything other than "alright" or anything leading you to think they aren't going to let you off the property, repeat those two sentences until they do.

Once you're off the property, they may read you the tresspass act, stating that you are no longer welcome on the property and you will be arrested if they see you again. This place is now dead to you.

Also, if they try to forcibly drag you to the back room. Scream, yell for the police, do whatever you can to get them. This reminds me of a story of a man who latched onto the blackjack table and yelled out "somebody call the police! they're going to kill me in that back room!" But as I said, by no means let them take you in that back room.

Just wanted to add this. Casinos do not usually trespass or take action against someone just because they are fortunate enough to be winning. If they suspect someone of counting, they contact surveillance and have them monitor their betting pattern. Those guys can count as accurately as any advantage player. If they only raise their bets when the count is positive, they are identified as a counter. After this identification, they might be trespassed or not, depending on policy. Making your bet changes based on the count is what gets counters caught although the winning might be what raises their suspicions in the first place.

Thanks for the information. I guess there is really no reason to get intimidated, as long as the worst-case scenerio is getting banned.

I think the real challenge, is trying like hell to pull in chips, without attracking attention. Anyone know if this idea works:

Play marathon blackjack. Plan on spending like 16 hours at the table. If you can last that long, you can probably only increase your bet a little bit when the count is high, but over the coures of 16 hours, you could be left with a decent amount of chips, no? The idea is that you wont raise a red flag by trying to pull in $500 on a single hand. I mean, winning 10K over the course of 16 hours looks a hell of a lot better than winning 10K in less than an hour, no?

your thinking is very flawed in this respect.

first of all, if you were to pull in 10K over 16 hours, by card counting, you would need an ASTRONOMICAL bankroll to pull it off, somewhere in the realm of $200,000. you would also need to be playing with (about, I may be off on the math) $500 units. If you were doing that, there's no way you'd last three hours before getting tossed, let alone 16. And if you're not counting, the longer you're in the casino and the more hands you play, the worse it is for you. I'm not sure what you know about card counting, but it is a very slow, steady process that takes alot of patience. If you're going to be counting you need to increase your bets according to the count exactly. Otherwise your overall estimated value is going to plummett. Also, if you're card counting, 16 hours is going to fry your brain. Card counting is very taxing on the mind and it's usually best to do it an hour or two at a time then take a break, 16 hours is too much. Also, if you're counting for that long, you're gonna run into a shift change, and the pit bosses are gonna know about you, so instead of having an eye on you for one shift, you have an eye on you for one shift and an even more suspicious eye on you for a second shift.

Scorcho,

Thanks for the information. As you can probably tell, I don't know anything about counting. Your reply does make sence, although I didn't realize you'd need such a large bankroll to win comparitively so little...

You raise a good point about being at the table so long. Perhaps it would be better to limit your time at the table, and therefore your exposure to watchful eyes...

With that said, I have a new question for anyone willing to answer. Let's say the your sole objective was to walk into a casino, and walk out with $250 more than you had. Lets say your bankroll is only about $600, but you are at a $15 minumum table. Does anyone know how difficult it might be to win $250 within a few hours if you are counting???

These kinds of questions can't be answered satisfactorily for most people. In truth, any given session is going to be dominated by luck, not skill. How likely is our $600 bankroll player to win $250 in a few hours.

Well, a card counter is just a little more likely to succeed than a basic strategy player, who is again just a little more likely to succeed than an average player who doesn't always play by basic strategy.

So, why bother? Well, by the end of lots of trips, there will be a big difference in the total wins or losses of these various types of players. But you can't look at the results of any one session and see the difference.

That's what makes learning to play blackjack well a difficult process for many people. They'll learn to count, go out and have a brutal losing session and assume it's not working. It just doesn't work that way. Or, even worse in most cases, they'll learn to count and go out and win a large amount in their first trip to the casino. They'll think "Wow, this is great. I'm really good at this now." Well, not really. Any big win is a lucky win. By card counting, you hope to have just a few more of those big lucky wins than of those big unlucky losses. You're guaranteed to have some of both.

All you beginner blackjack players out there should read the preceding post by Ken over and over until you have it memorized. He's talking about a core truth of blackjack, that it's a long term phenomenon. A lot of people do not understand this.

One example:

In another thread someone asked if KO works. Well, I've been using it for about 23 months now, about 6 hours per weekend. And I think it may be too early to tell yet if it really works. You might have to play for several years before you know if you're playing at an advantage or not.

card counting, why the fuss?

hey I'm new to this card counting. been using KO, practicing on the software etc.. almost ready for the casinos. I accept the fact that it only gives me such a small extra margin but it is fun to use and really it's generated my interest more in blackjack than I have ever been. since it is so difficult to win large amounts of money doing it why are the casinos so paranoid about it? do you think the csm's are more in response to card counters or is it just more of businesses goal of implementing more automation into the system? I feel they are destroying the personality of the game. does anyone believe this will be the blackjack game of the future and if so how long before fair deals are a thing of the past?

Scorcho:
I was reading what you said about not going into the back room. Thats some good advice. What exactly do they do to you if you do go with them to the back room?

My System

Blue

My system was not anything complex. Just Basic Strategy playing on the $25 dollar tables. I would walk in with a Bank roll of $600 for the session and leave the rest in the room. My goal was to leave with $200, once I hit it I would walk away from the table. My last trip to Vegas I won 17 out of 18 sessions. I played about 7 different casinos and would go between them. Would always play one on one with the dealer if possible. Some sessions went rather quickly with about 5 minutes being the longest I would be there. They would ask me if I had a players card and when I said no, it took more time to get the players card than the money. Others I would sit for a couple of hours just to reach my $200, can remember fighting tooth and nail at one just to get back even, but patience was my key never increasing my bet when I was down.

I'm going back this weekend with the same mind set and let's see where the cards may fall. The funniest part of my last trip was I got more comps from the Casinos where I did not spend much playing time at all and hardly any from the Hotel I stayed at and gave alot of action to. Go figure. Using the Comps from one of the Casinos I may have played 30 minutes at.

I also am curious abou the back room. Do not ever want to go there. Have had Pit Bosses stand back and just stare me down but on the other hand have had pit bosses just stand there and we would get to talking so much the dealer was waiting on me. Will let you know how this trip goes, I am very patient and have learned the hard way not to chase my money when it runs from me. But also have learned to take my profits instead of trying to press them.

Take Care
Dusty