Knock Out Black Jack

[GlenRuss]

My wife and kids got me Knock Out Black Jack by Vancura and Fuchs, for fathers day. I read it last night from cover to cover. I can't wait to practice it on my table in the basement, then eventually the casino. Has anyone used KO in actual casino play? I've used hi/lo in the past with decent results, I just kept losing count when I had to convert to the true count, or I was afraid that I lost it, or didn't do it right. This system doesn't have that conversion, I'm pretty excited about it.

The book itself is pretty good. Some of it seems more complicated than it has to be, but I guess they have to fill up some pages. I heard about the book here when I mentioned I was looking to find a way out of the conversion. So I'm going to give it a try. I'll practice for a few months, then try it in A.C. as I live in N.Y. So, I just wanted to know if anyone has used KO, been successful, especially with multi-deck shoes???

[Scorcho]

Originally Posted by GlenRuss

My wife and kids got me Knock Out Black Jack by Vancura and Fuchs, for fathers day. I read it last night from cover to cover. I can't wait to practice it on my table in the basement, then eventually the casino. Has anyone used KO in actual casino play? I've used hi/lo in the past with decent results, I just kept losing count when I had to convert to the true count, or I was afraid that I lost it, or didn't do it right. This system doesn't have that conversion, I'm pretty excited about it.

The book itself is pretty good. Some of it seems more complicated than it has to be, but I guess they have to fill up some pages. I heard about the book here when I mentioned I was looking to find a way out of the conversion. So I'm going to give it a try. I'll practice for a few months, then try it in A.C. as I live in N.Y. So, I just wanted to know if anyone has used KO, been successful, especially with multi-deck shoes???

And she does pretty well with shoes. It's a good system and I think you'll do just fine with it, go for it.

[SystemsTrader]

Hey GlenRuss your situation sounds familiar. I was using a balanced count but I would often forget the running count when switching to the true count. So two weeks ago I started learning KO. I'm really liking it so far it is much easier than Hi-Lo. I haven't used it in the casino yet.

I've run into a couple of problems so far. One is that I now have to count the 7's which confused me at first but with practice I am getting the hang of it. The other problem I'm also having is I practice against 8 decks and with the count starting at minus 28 I find I am getting confused a lot. I'm not used to counting those large numbers which have extra syllables like mi-thir-ty-se-ven. You never count 4 and 5 syllables in Hi-Lo consistently and this has really slowed down and confused my counting which has caused me a few mistakes.

However I am optimistic and with practice I will get better. I am also considering customizing the count so I'm not in the negative numbers too often. Hopefully we can continue this thread going with any questions or insights we or others might have about KO.

[GlenRuss]

Hey Systems Trader I was thinking the same thing about the larger numbers. I was also thinking of some kind of conversion. Maybe we could work on it together, or at least compare notes. We do have to remember that the key count and the pivot points will change acordingly if we change the IRC value.

I agree the 7s are a little tricky when we've trained to count them as 0. Like you said, it'll take some practice. I started the count down deck exersize and got a perfect 0 in 37 seconds, then realized I didn't count the sevens, as I was trying to practice KO, I should have goten +4

So let me know what you think.

[Canceler]

SystemsTrader: Customizing the count was, of course, recommended by the authors for people in just your situation, not wanting to deal with the negative numbers. Just one caution though: If you always play with the same number of decks you'll probably be okay, but it strikes me that if you switch from 6 decks to 4 decks or 2 decks it might get a little confusing.

GlenRuss: I've been using KO for about 23 months now, about 6 hours per weekend, playing red to low green, at mostly 6-deck tables. When I started my bankroll was down about $300. After some swings that were several thousand dollars in amplitude, I bottomed out at being DOWN $4,202.50 on 10/31/04. On 5/8/05 I was UP $1,417.50. Currently I am DOWN $1,517.50, mostly due to a couple of disastrous sessions at a $25 table.

So, does KO work? Considering the amount of luck involved in the game, and how long it takes for any small advantage to manifest itself, I have to say that it may be too soon to tell!

I think you should do what I do: Assume that it works.

[SystemsTrader]

I've adjusted my IRC to start at 0. I've started practicing today and already I find it more comfortable. Most of my playing will be against 8 decks.

Canceler- As for the betting strategy,while practising I've found you can have an extended period of being between the key and pivot counts. If using a 1-10 spread the KO authors suggest and betting progression of:
Key count -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 Pivot count
Units 1 2 2 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Will the casino find this suspicious if I'm constantly changing my unit size between 1 to 10 units during this period. Especially if you go from betting $5 to $15 to $35 than back down to $25 and so on. Do you use this unit sizing or some other method?

[Canceler]

SystemsTrader:

I don't follow the recommended betting progression exactly, I use it more as a general guideline.

I tend to increase my bet using only chips that are already in the betting circle. So I only increase after a win, and then by no more than doubling it. I only decrease my bet after a loss, and then only by about 50%. I'll drop from one green to two reds, or three reds to one red. (Lots of rounding involved with that 50%!)

The aim of all this is to make my bet size changes seem natural, something that someone who isn't counting might do.

Also, if the count gets to like +8, for example, I sometimes go to a 1-15 spread, instead of the recommended 1-10.

You asked what I do, and I told you. But I'm actually not satisfied with it. I should probably try to be more aggressive in raising my bet when the count calls for it. Something for me to work on.

[JIMMIT]

I havn't read the book yet plan on buying it in the next couple of days but I have started learning the count which I picked up from the website and from kevin blackwood's book play blackjack like a pro. my question is... does the book talk about or has anyone thought about adding side counts to KO to make it more accurate. (I'm new to this so my whole view on side counts may be wrong) but wouldn't knowing how many aces are left give you more of an edge just like it does with some of the other high level counts.

thanks,

Jim

[Canceler]

No, the book doesn't mention side counts. My only comment would be that one of the main features of KO is its simplicity, and if you are going to complicate it with a side count, maybe some other system would be better.

[lagavulin62]

so glad I found this forum as I purchased the KO book about a month ago and have been practicing using one of the more popular blackjack software programs. not sure what the policy is on talking about software programs so for the sake of sounding like a salesman will not mention it.

before I started learning KO I had been practicing a level 2 system. it's not even listed in the major strategies and is not considered very reliable so I was encouraged to try KO. what a difference that has made. have not used it at the casinos yet but I am progressing very well with the program. I too have experienced many of the problems many of you have mentioned so I will share some of the ways I have addressed those issues and then I have a few questions/concerns of my own.

in regards to the IRC I never liked the idea of starting with a negative count so I immediately adjusted it to start at 0. I have been practicing with a 6 deck shoe, since it seems that is the most common of the shoe games. with an IRC at 0, that made the key count at 16 and the pivot at 24. not too bad and not too many different numbers to count. but then going to minus counts got really confusing and it tended to slow me down to the point it was hard to keep up. I agree that the extra syllables make it difficult, or even saying minus to yourself seems awkward. but what I find is most difficult is changing the way you count when in negative territory. you get accoustomed to subtracting your count whenever you see high cards but then when you get into negative numbers, now you have to add the high cards, even though technically you are subtracting. about 2 weeks ago I decided that the best way to get around that was to change the IRC to 20. that makes the key count 36 and the pivot at 44. I resisted changing at first because I didn't want to practice counting backwards with so many numbers but I am so glad I changed because the count rarely ever gets below 10. so dealing in negatives is a thing of the past for me. also if the count ever gets so low it's in negative territory that would certainly be a good time to leave the table. as far as the problem with syllables, part of my practice routine involves counting backwards from 50 to 0. I do it by even/odd numbers and then by ones. I know it sounds elementary but after practicing it again and again it becomes almost rote. and the good thing is I never have to worry about changing my method of counting. high numbers are ALWAYS subtracted and lows are ALWAYS added.

I know what you mean about getting confused in parts of the book. I skimmed through it at first, just wanted to get the idea of the system so I could start practicing and then read at my leasure. but the parts about the matrix charts, I had a hard time figuring out, and could never understand what they were saying about the pivot point, even though I read every part listed in the index about 3 times. so I did the only intelligent thing and read it from cover to cover and it was very easy to follow and understand. anyway it's good to know that I'm not the only one who was a bit confused. I was beginning to question my reading ability.

as far as the matrix goes, if anyone has used the system in a casino maybe you can help me with this one. it seems, and maybe it's just my imagination, that when I get past the pivot point I tend to bust out too much. I know the matrix has you stand on 16 vs 9 or 10, 15 vs 10 etc..... but what about times like 14 vs 10, or 15 vs 9. I find myself wanting to stand on those situations. I guess it's like with basic strategy and hitting 16 vs 10, trusting that the experts have done all the math. I understand all of that and I also understand that KO's strong point is bet sizing and not playing strategy but is there anyone out there who has these concerns?

hope this helps.

mike