Manipulating the dealer??

How is this activity looked at by the group here? Here is what I did.

This happened about 6 months ago and I wasn't sure I should even share it. I was playing at a casino that I don't visit often because it's a little farther than most. I was sitting at 1st base with 3 other people thru a full shoe when near the end of the shoe the dealer didn't pay my winning hand. She scooped up all the cards before I was able to confirm in my head that I should have been paid. I politely spoke up and said that I should have been paid on my 19. She said no, you had 18 and pushed. I told her what I had and asked to see the cards. She rolled her eyes, even the guy next to me said I had 18. I politely told him I had K-2-7. Sure enough she pulled all the cards back and I was correct. She called the pit over, explained what happened and couldn't stop apologizing to me. She said she never does that about 10 times and was seriously embarassed.

The information I gathered was that she was so embarassed that I might be able to get a free win because there is no way she would want to go through the cards like that again and be wrong in front of the pit. So I sit through another shoe until I have a 2 unit bet out and push. I wait until she scoops the cards and right when she drops them in the discard try I strike. Same language as before. Same tone. I tell her exactly what cards I had. She looks at me for a second and decides to pay me without pulling all the cards out. I pull my "winnings" back and make a comment about how she's having an "off night". After a few more hands the count gets close to my wong-out point so I decide to just leave.

It was just a little experiment I decided to try on the fly. Just curious to see if I was right and could pull it off. I figured worst case is she pulls the cards back, sees I'm wrong, and I apologize. Thoughts?

The biggest problem I have with it is you might get someone fired.

I'd say you cheated.

I have no problem taking a dealer mispay or standing up for myself if an error went against me but I do draw the line at outright cheating.

You're going to prison.

Its most certainly cheating. The decision to cheat or not to cheat is entirely up to you. I'd rather work on building my skills so as to not to resort to cheating, but others enjoy short cuts.
As the overhead camera doesn't pick up voices, it is simply going to show the dealer paying you for losing hands.

+1

Ultimately the dealer's job is at stake and this can get him/her fired. Of course you could just say you were mistaken...

When HC'ing, AP's 'essentially' do the same thing - take advantage of dealer errors to maximize the ability to create profit, but that doesn't neglect the fact that, in this instance, you're making the jump from AP to cheater. You aren't playing with an advantage; instead, you're stealing chips, albeit without technically "robbing" the place.

However, in an earlier post, I said that AP's are in the business of increasing profits. You must do what you feel is right for you. Yes, this type of move is morally wrong, and illegal if proven.

On the other end, many tactics employed by the casinos are morally wrong.

I never much cared for the argument that it was okay for me to do the wrong thing because anyone or any number of people also did it or other wrong things. If you do whats right you should be happy in your own skin no matter what. Do the wrong thing with a normal conscience and you will be made unhappy by the subconscious levels of your brain that no level of rationalization can get rid of. Your subconscious brain cannt be lied to by the conscious brain unless you have a defect.

Not going to work. The dealer will be flipping those cards of the tray to check. You are not going to get paid no matter what you say or what you think you can pull off.

Read the post. It did work. That's not the question.

My opinion: It's cheating. The courts probably agree.

Completely agree. Don't kill the golden goose; find a way to milk the golden goose.

Cheating, yes but it would be extremely difficult to prosecute unless you came clean.

I don't believe it. Penthouse magazine stuff.

Impossible to prosecute. If she pulled out the cards you would just say "wow, I really thought I had a X."

It sounds like "shot-taking" to me. Like most shots, you can probably get away with it a couple of times, if you're morally OK with doing so. Obviously this kind of thing can't be done very often. If they realize you're taking shots at a weak dealer you'll be 86'd pretty quickly, and the dealer might be disciplined. They will probably even roll back the tape and force you to pay back whatever you were incorrectly paid. (And they can legally do so.)

It's called "shot taking" plain and simple

nah bro. its stealing and you should be ashamed of yourself, just because you can get away with something doesn't mean you should do it. This thread should be deleted as it gives legitimate players a bad name by being associated with you, even if only by posting on the same forum. If i lose all my money at the tables and then rob a bank on the way home can i call myself an AP too? Get the **** out of here with that ****.

Ashamed ? I don't know. I've taken a couple of shots over the years. So why not? I guess if you have some moral issue maybe not. But...

Mr Smith

I think you are feeling bad over this incident,,correct?

I believe you have a conscience and it bothers you, ask the Great Sprit for forgiveness. Go forth now and do no harm again, you will be forgiven.

CP

We have gotten into this type of dealer error, discussion before. Do you say something when the dealer pays your push? Or pushes your loss? Do you accept the extra funds when you buy in or color up and the dealer makes a mistake in your favor? What about hole-carding? That seems to be a whole strategy based on dealer error and/or sloppiness. This is slightly worse as you are encouraging the mistake rather than simply taking advantage of it.

I used to have a move that wasn't all that different than the OP's, encouraging a dealer mistake. When the dealer drew a 6 card 21, I would simply state “yes, 22!” You would be surprised how often that worked. I would estimate 25-33% percent. :laugh: Worked best when you picked your spots though. You could get a feel for the dealer that it might work with and if you were playing competently for a while, it added more credibility. Of course it had greater value, when you had a larger bet out, but I found it worked best with a medium size wager not my max wager. The dealer would double check more when a large wager was involved. The times it didn't work, ahhhh so what, I made a mistake. I was usually leaving at the end of that shoe anyway. I would guess I pulled that off 10 times out of 30 or so attempts. Although I never felt great about pulling this move, it wasn't my conscience that made me stop. One day after I successfully pulled this maneuver, or so I thought, a pit guy came over 5 minutes later and said I owed them $350, that they had paid me $175 on a losing wager. It occurred to me then that this was the type of long lasting impression and attention, both in the pit and upstairs that I was trying so hard to avoid, so I removed that play from the arsenal.

After that I adopted the middle of the road approach, that I would accept dealer mistakes in my favor, but not encourage them. I don't know how the great spirit feels about it, :laugh: but is an approach that I can live with. The casino/dealer do have to take some responsibility for their game, mistakes and sloppiness.

this **** makes me mad. i was playing craps a while ago and on my comeout roll i threw 7 and they just started scooping up all the money i had on numbers even though they were off since im coming out. i say this to them and they all roll their eyes and look at eachother like "get a load of this guy. one of these clowns gonna tell us..." and all 4 people tell me im wrong and act like im an idiot. finally the other player at the table speaks up and is like " yo you guys cant take his money. thats a come out roll!"

me: yeah wtf, the button says off (or whatever)
them: oh yeah sorry
me, other dude: yeah wtf?
them: hey this game is complicated. everyone makes mistakes (and behave as if they're gonna stop the game if i give them a hard time)
me: but why am i a jackass when you thought i was wrong? i play 20 hours of this in my life an you guys do this for a living. we can act like im stuid if im wrong but you guys are sacred?

in my head: you should all hang your head in shame and let us berate you since the 4 of you cant even do your job and come as close to berating players as you can get even though they're right anyway!

this is a pet peeve of mine. people should have to wear some kinda hat of shame when they act like others are stupid for not seeing things there way but then turn out to be wrong. people would be more humble if they knew theyd be shamed if they were wrong

People like this piss ME off also. This would be enough to make ME want to pull a shot on her if I thought I could get away with it. And I could give a rat's ass if it got her fired (unless of course she had other qualities whereby I had further use for her; in which case I would bite my tongue & NOT pull shots). :eyepatch:

Exactly right, with the possible exception of the last sentence. In many jurisdictions, it's against gaming law for a casino to forcibly take money from you once it's in your stack, no matter HOW it got there (New Jersey and Mississippi certainly come to mind).