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  #1  
Old July 14th, 2011, 08:04 AM
pogostick pogostick is offline
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I know there are only 2 bets on the table one should make . Pass line & take full odds or don't pass & give full odds. laying & placing bets comes in second best. Now I am going to ask why would one want to give odds on the don't After point has been established ? You already have the odds in your favor. Example > 4 or 10 is made on the come out ($25 bet) you give full odds $50. shooter makes the 4 ,you get paid $50 , $25 on front & $25 for $50 odds you gave. (2 for1). Why not just up your bet to $50 & not give any odds . You would win $50 instead of risking $75 to make $50. If you are not familiar with craps then this post will make no sense to you. 7 & 11 you lose 2 & 3 win ,12 par.12 The disadvantage is on the come out . As far as i'm concerned this is about as close that you can get to be playing with the house. Bar 12 is the only advantage the house has on don't come out as you don't win or lose on 12.

Last edited by pogostick; July 14th, 2011 at 08:08 AM.
  #2  
Old July 14th, 2011, 09:27 AM
tthree tthree is offline
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I notice you chose the points that give the don't better the largest advantage after it is established. The disadvantage on your don't bet covers the full spectrum of possibilities. You have a large disadvantage on the comeout, win 3 times lose 8 times. One of these events happens 31.43% of the time. You make up most of it with the advantage you have after the point is established. The odds bet is a separate bet that doesn't change the house odds on your original bet at all. The house has no advantage on this bet as it is payed at fair odds. What the affect is is to water down the drag on profit from the comeout and lower the house edge on the total of the two wagers compared to your initial wager. This allows you to make more money if the points are not being made more than expected and still make a profit if the 2 and 3 to natural is coming out more against you compared to expected rates. When they make the points more than expected it hurts you a lot.

Trying to explain the nuts and bolts can seem futile. Basically if you play a $10 dont bet with single odds you expect to lose the same as the $10 bet by itself in the long run. A $20 bet on the dont would win the same on the point numbers but expect to lose twice as much in the long run.
  #3  
Old July 15th, 2011, 06:25 PM
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Ferretnparrot Ferretnparrot is offline
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If your goal is to pass time playing the game, then no, you shouldnt place the odds.

Some people take the position to be PUTTING THEIR MONEY INTO ACTION, in which case, the money you put into action is subject to a lower house edge.

In the end, you lose the same amount of money, but one way gets more money into action that is the only difference.


It coudl also be reletive to what one considers a "recreationally sized" bet being a bet that is so small that they dont care. If the size of that bet is 10 dollars in proportion to one bank, then it doesnt make sense, but if the bet size is 100 dollars, now it makes sense for the player to bet 10, and then lay 90 for odds.

One could always argue that you would be obviously better off playing blackjack, but this is a perfect example of how sometimes the purpose of playing a game is not for profit, I happily play craps socially at the expense of 14 cents per roll, all you gotta do is get a few drinks and its worth your while even if you dont see the valuye of the social atmosphere.
  #4  
Old July 15th, 2011, 06:42 PM
tthree tthree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretnparrot View Post
If your goal is to pass time playing the game, then no, you shouldnt place the odds.

Some people take the position to be PUTTING THEIR MONEY INTO ACTION, in which case, the money you put into action is subject to a lower house edge.

In the end, you lose the same amount of money, but one way gets more money into action that is the only difference.


It coudl also be reletive to what one considers a "recreationally sized" bet being a bet that is so small that they dont care. If the size of that bet is 10 dollars in proportion to one bank, then it doesnt make sense, but if the bet size is 100 dollars, now it makes sense for the player to bet 10, and then lay 90 for odds.

One could always argue that you would be obviously better off playing blackjack, but this is a perfect example of how sometimes the purpose of playing a game is not for profit, I happily play craps socially at the expense of 14 cents per roll, all you gotta do is get a few drinks and its worth your while even if you dont see the valuye of the social atmosphere.
If you only play the point decision it is a lot less than 14 cents a roll. It can take some rolls to decide the point number. Adding come bets make it 14 cents a roll. Of course maybe you didn't mean the technical term for roll.
  #5  
Old July 15th, 2011, 07:21 PM
pogostick pogostick is offline
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Oh what the hell! I never play don't anyway . I play pass & come ,take full odds & yes sometime play the hard six & 8 plus that dam horn bet, Can't help myself LOL . Just wanted to start something. Pogo
  #6  
Old July 16th, 2011, 07:56 PM
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I meant "roll" as in complete cycle of the bet from come out untill its payed or taken. And 14 cents for a 10 dollar base bet
  #7  
Old July 24th, 2011, 08:51 AM
CasinoExaminer CasinoExaminer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pogostick View Post
I know there are only 2 bets on the table one should make . Pass line & take full odds or don't pass & give full odds. laying & placing bets comes in second best. Now I am going to ask why would one want to give odds on the don't After point has been established ? You already have the odds in your favor. Example > 4 or 10 is made on the come out ($25 bet) you give full odds $50. shooter makes the 4 ,you get paid $50 , $25 on front & $25 for $50 odds you gave. (2 for1). Why not just up your bet to $50 & not give any odds . You would win $50 instead of risking $75 to make $50. If you are not familiar with craps then this post will make no sense to you. 7 & 11 you lose 2 & 3 win ,12 par.12 The disadvantage is on the come out . As far as i'm concerned this is about as close that you can get to be playing with the house. Bar 12 is the only advantage the house has on don't come out as you don't win or lose on 12.
We cannot "up" the $25 don't pass bet after the point, but your comments about laying odds are interesting, pogostick. Our $25 don't bet is established at a pount of 4 or 10 which pays 1:1. Laying $50 double odds will increase our action to $75 for a $50 total win. If we chose to not lay odds with two decisions (two different shooters or points), our total action is $50 to win $50. Sure make a lot sense to not risk the additional money to make the same amount
  #8  
Old July 24th, 2011, 11:38 AM
tthree tthree is offline
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Default Here is the break down for 2 donts vs 1 dont with single odds for point 4 or 10

Quote:
Originally Posted by CasinoExaminer View Post
We cannot "up" the $25 don't pass bet after the point, but your comments about laying odds are interesting, pogostick. Our $25 don't bet is established at a pount of 4 or 10 which pays 1:1. Laying $50 double odds will increase our action to $75 for a $50 total win. If we chose to not lay odds with two decisions (two different shooters or points), our total action is $50 to win $50. Sure make a lot sense to not risk the additional money to make the same amount
To get your money to the 4 or 10 on the don't you had to survive the come out, you lose $25 8/11 and win 3/11 of the 31.43% of the time your dont bet is decided on the come out, a net lose of 5/11. Only 25% of your points will be 4 or 10. To get 2 points up you will expect to lose about 1 bet on average to the come out. These 2 will both be a point of either 4 or 10 exactly 4% of the time.

So for 25% of the time you get a point of 4 or 10 your net comeout lose 5/11*($25) = $11.36 for 31.43% of the time any point is established. So we get $11.36*(31.43%/25%) = $14.28 lost to the come out per point of 4 or 10.

So for dont with no odds, you lose $28.56 getting your 2 points (4 or 10)up so if you win both you are $21.44 ahead on average. If you win one you are $28.56 behind on average. If you lose both you are $78.56 down on average.

Total = 4/9*($21.44) + 2(2/9)*(-$28.56) + 1/9*(-$78.56) = $9.53 - $12.69 - $8.73 = -$11.89

For single odds you lose about $14.28 getting one point up(4 or 10). If you win you are $35.72 ahead. If you lose you are $89.28 behind.

Total = 2/3*($35.72) + 1/3*(-$89.28) = $23.81 - $29.76 = -$5.95

So you lose twice as much in the long run making 2 dont bets without odds that end up on the 4 or 10 than 1 dont bet with single odds that end up on the 4 or 10.
  #9  
Old September 8th, 2011, 03:40 AM
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CrazyEddie CrazyEddie is offline
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In other words, taking or laying any amount of free odds doesn't affect your EV one way or the other, just your variance.
  #10  
Old September 21st, 2011, 12:16 PM
pogostick pogostick is offline
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I love craps although I should stick with BJ. I had a few chips & was headed for the cage to cash in for the night. A $5 crap table got in my way on the way. No players . I had $55 total. pass line $5 point 6 ,took 25 odds .come bet $5 ,another 6 place $25 odds working on the come out another 6 . Made a hard 8 three times & had pressed it up to $25 . Walked away with $800 > I was happy ,dealers were happy because I had placed a $1 bet on most of my bets for them. I found out something about tipping the dealers. Do not place a tip on the pass line because they only get paid 1 for 1 . If you place any number ,they get paid 2 for 1. that is one of their benefits from the casino.
 

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