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  #11  
Old September 21st, 2011, 04:13 PM
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FLASH1296 FLASH1296 is offline
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I suggest that those that still think "taking" or "laying" the odds is a poor idea check out the authoritative info on Craps at wizardofodds.com:

GO TO: http://wizardofodds.com/craps

THEN: http://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/craps-faq.html

I M O the correct way to look at this issue is as follows:

You are gambling, putting money at risk with the hope or expectation of making a profit or suffering a minimal loss.

Are we on the same page?

If you bet $10 on the pass line or don't pass and repeat for a period of time, your expectation is a loss of 14 per resolved bet.

If I bet $10 and take "5 times odds"* on each roll my e.v. is NOT the same as yours. See The wiz' as referenced above. This is because that 1.4% House Edge is diluted by the ODDS bet. You are paying 14 for a little action. I am paying 14 for much more action. Would you accept playing the same 14 on $5 action instead of $10 ? How about on $1 bets ?

* I ONLY bet the dont's and I never play at tables that offer less than 10 X ODDS.

Even in Atlantic City there are two casinos that offer 100 x ODDS

While it is true that I am accepting hugely increased variance, I am fortunate enough to have a 6 figure cash bankroll.
This is not for the faint of heart. ��

NOTE: One of the things that I enjoy about "betting from the dark side" is that I frequently make a string of "Don't Come" bets. Often I will have 3 or 4 bets [with ODDS] "going"; and this is remarkable because while the Pass Line Bettors LOSE ALL of their "COME" bets when a 7 is rolled, what happens to me is quite different. I win ALL of my bets! Losing a bunch of bets all at once is almost catastrophic. I can only lose one bet at a time ! This creates a scenario with LESS FLUX ! My results are not so brutal when I am unlucky.
��
  #12  
Old September 21st, 2011, 04:41 PM
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FLASH1296 FLASH1296 is offline
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Default From the wiz'

From the wiz':

Betting the don'ts and laying 100 x Odds the House Edge is 0.00014%

meaning that per $100 bet you lose 1.4 cents on average.

go to: ... http://wizardofodds.com/craps

... http://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard...-oddsbets.html
  #13  
Old October 9th, 2011, 09:08 AM
pogostick pogostick is offline
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Originally Posted by pogostick View Post
i love craps although i should stick with bj. I had a few chips & was headed for the cage to cash in for the night. A $5 crap table got in my way on the way. No players . I had $55 total. Pass line $5 point 6 ,took 25 odds .come bet $5 ,another 6 place $25 odds working on the come out another 6 . Made a hard 8 three times & had pressed it up to $25 . Walked away with $800 > i was happy ,dealers were happy because i had placed a $1 bet on most of my bets for them. I found out something about tipping the dealers. Do not place a tip on the pass line because they only get paid 1 for 1 . If you place any number ,they get paid 2 for 1. That is one of their benefits from the casino.
i am going on a cruise out of norfolk. They have cs on bj & hit soft 17. I'm thinking about not play bj at all but what do you guys think about this on craps . Place 6 & 8 $12 each if either point is made , i get paid $14 . Press the 6&8 to $18 keep the $2 . My total investiment from start was $24 ,now $22. Any 6 or 8 made after that will pay $21 . My reason ? My pass line bet has to be reapeated & come bets has to be made twice.
  #14  
Old October 9th, 2011, 09:58 AM
tthree tthree is offline
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Originally Posted by pogostick View Post
i am going on a cruise out of norfolk. They have cs on bj & hit soft 17. I'm thinking about not play bj at all but what do you guys think about this on craps . Place 6 & 8 $12 each if either point is made , i get paid $14 . Press the 6&8 to $18 keep the $2 . My total investiment from start was $24 ,now $22. Any 6 or 8 made after that will pay $21 . My reason ? My pass line bet has to be reapeated & come bets has to be made twice.
If you don't take odds on your pass/come bets this is not a bad trade off. HE 1.51%, if memory serves, rather than 1.42% and ending up with a bad point. Of course you give up the expected winfall for the comeout portion of the bet. The thing to consider that you might be missing is you are not vulnerable to a 7 on the establishment of the P/C bet. The 7 and 11 pay for that. The place bet repeat you have to survive the 7 twice. For the place bet combo hit twice 10/16*10/16 = 39% success paying $35 at risk about $24. For the P/C bet no odds you have about 49.29% success, 1/3 of the time it is decided on the comeout with you winning 2/3 of the time. The downside is your point could be a 4 or 10.
  #15  
Old October 9th, 2011, 11:51 AM
pogostick pogostick is offline
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Originally Posted by tthree View Post
If you don't take odds on your pass/come bets this is not a bad trade off. HE 1.51%, if memory serves, rather than 1.42% and ending up with a bad point. Of course you give up the expected winfall for the comeout portion of the bet. The thing to consider that you might be missing is you are not vulnerable to a 7 on the establishment of the P/C bet. The 7 and 11 pay for that. The place bet repeat you have to survive the 7 twice. For the place bet combo hit twice 10/16*10/16 = 39% success paying $35 at risk about $24. For the P/C bet no odds you have about 49.29% success, 1/3 of the time it is decided on the comeout with you winning 2/3 of the time. The downside is your point could be a 4 or 10.
I think only playing the pass when I shoot & just placing the 6 & 8 when others shoot & pressing them up one unit to $18 on both if either 6 or 8 is made.
  #16  
Old October 9th, 2011, 06:15 PM
tthree tthree is offline
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I think only playing the pass when I shoot & just placing the 6 & 8 when others shoot & pressing them up one unit to $18 on both if either 6 or 8 is made.
Do you take them down after the second hit? Is this an up and pull? Or is it to pay for 2 $18 bets on the 6 and 8 for a hot roll?
  #17  
Old October 10th, 2011, 06:49 AM
pogostick pogostick is offline
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Do you take them down after the second hit? Is this an up and pull? Or is it to pay for 2 $18 bets on the 6 and 8 for a hot roll?
I leave them up for the hot roll. I know if I play long enough , no matter what I do the house % will prevail. my normal play is $10 pass full odds & 2 come bets full odds. Odds are 3, 4 ,5 on 4,5,6 . I have so many times had three points on the table ,just to see them wiped out after a long roll ,not hitting a one of my numbers, losing at least $100 . I have been practing the 6 & 8 method vs pass & come laying odds & so far the placing the 6 & 8 pressing both to $18 if either number is made is #1. If the table is hot I will place the 6 & 8 for $30 each & press to $42 if either is made. Example> roll 6 ,press 6 & 8 to $18. Thank's tthree for the come back . Pogo

Last edited by pogostick; October 10th, 2011 at 07:00 AM.
  #18  
Old October 10th, 2011, 08:07 AM
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ChefJJ ChefJJ is offline
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Default The Timeless Debate...

...Place 6/8 bets vs. Come bets. When you get down to the bottom of these bets "on an island", they are both as good as it gets (except for the Odds, of course).

My personal preference continues to be the Place bets over Come. You wanna know why? The biggest component of the Pass/Come bets' low HE is that the 7 is a winner for it when it is coming out. So when you're doing the 3-point molly (Pass + Come + Come), those Come bets' advantageous rolls (their come-outs) come at a time when other Pass/Come bets lose. It's more or less become a hedge...which may or may not be good depending on your philosophy.

Once the Pass/Come bet travels, it's a big disadvantage...and unless you're taking an obscene amount of Odds to go with those wagers (which is not feasible for nearly everyone) like FLASH is wise to recommend, you're stuck with some steep house edges. So, perhaps I should revise my thought to say, Place bets are superior unless you plan on taking full advantage of 10X or greater odds on each Pass/Come made.

Very few players work their Place bets during the come-out roll (especially when having a Pass Line wager). There are several explanations for this, including that the house's default is this way, but an important one is that you don't have bets contradicting each other. A 7 wins the Pass Line, but kills those worked Place bets. The fact that Place bets are NOT contract wagers like Pass & Come can be beneficial as well.

Carry this logic forward when making a Come bet and having the Pass Line as well. When you've got a wager that wins you money when the 7 rolls, why dilute that with action that will lose at the same time? 7 is the most powerful number in the game of craps...enjoy it when it works for you instead of muddying the water.

I say this all in the "conversation only" mindset. No number crunching, just worthless oozing of my mind. There are pros and cons to all of it, the biggest being the omnipresent house edge.

Enjoy!
  #19  
Old October 10th, 2011, 08:53 AM
pogostick pogostick is offline
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Originally Posted by ChefJJ View Post
...Place 6/8 bets vs. Come bets. When you get down to the bottom of these bets "on an island", they are both as good as it gets (except for the Odds, of course).

My personal preference continues to be the Place bets over Come. You wanna know why? The biggest component of the Pass/Come bets' low HE is that the 7 is a winner for it when it is coming out. So when you're doing the 3-point molly (Pass + Come + Come), those Come bets' advantageous rolls (their come-outs) come at a time when other Pass/Come bets lose. It's more or less become a hedge...which may or may not be good depending on your philosophy.

Once the Pass/Come bet travels, it's a big disadvantage...and unless you're taking an obscene amount of Odds to go with those wagers (which is not feasible for nearly everyone) like FLASH is wise to recommend, you're stuck with some steep house edges. So, perhaps I should revise my thought to say, Place bets are superior unless you plan on taking full advantage of 10X or greater odds on each Pass/Come made.

Very few players work their Place bets during the come-out roll (especially when having a Pass Line wager). There are several explanations for this, including that the house's default is this way, but an important one is that you don't have bets contradicting each other. A 7 wins the Pass Line, but kills those worked Place bets. The fact that Place bets are NOT contract wagers like Pass & Come can be beneficial as well.

Carry this logic forward when making a Come bet and having the Pass Line as well. When you've got a wager that wins you money when the 7 rolls, why dilute that with action that will lose at the same time? 7 is the most powerful number in the game of craps...enjoy it when it works for you instead of muddying the water.

I say this all in the "conversation only" mindset. No number crunching, just worthless oozing of my mind. There are pros and cons to all of it, the biggest being the omnipresent house edge.

Enjoy!
Thank's chef> This is 100% the way I was thinking ,may have not explained it that well. Pogo
  #20  
Old November 4th, 2011, 01:08 PM
pogostick pogostick is offline
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I know there are only 2 bets on the table one should make . Pass line & take full odds or don't pass & give full odds. laying & placing bets comes in second best. Now I am going to ask why would one want to give odds on the don't After point has been established ? You already have the odds in your favor. Example > 4 or 10 is made on the come out ($25 bet) you give full odds $50. shooter makes the 4 ,you get paid $50 , $25 on front & $25 for $50 odds you gave. (2 for1). Why not just up your bet to $50 & not give any odds . You would win $50 instead of risking $75 to make $50. If you are not familiar with craps then this post will make no sense to you. 7 & 11 you lose 2 & 3 win ,12 par.12 The disadvantage is on the come out . As far as i'm concerned this is about as close that you can get to be playing with the house. Bar 12 is the only advantage the house has on don't come out as you don't win or lose on 12.
UP DATE > NOT WORTH A CRAP > Sorry for the thought of posting this.
 

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