CSM - Can fed in cards be dealt right away?

[gobbledygeek]

Does anyone know how the ShuffleKing shuffle machine works? I was wondering if the fed in cards are shuffled into the deck immediately and thus can possibly appear in the next round of cards or whether there is a delay. Is there already a buffered queue of cards that awaits to be dealt and if so how many cards are in this queue?

My local casino only has CSMs so I just flat bet the minimum with basic strategy and count for fun. Yesterday I noticed the running count hit +17 with about 3 of the 5 decks remaining (true count about +5) but then the discarded cards were fed into the ShuffleKing. I was curious if the next round could possibly be played with that count or if it was absolutely necessary to reset to 0. I was third base with 5 other players at the table.

[SystemsTrader]

I wish people wouldn't play against these machines even if theres no alternative. That's the one sure way to keep them out of the casinos. I guess its your money but I don't see how playing basic strategy and flat betting can be fun when you will lose your money to the machine. But if you can find some flaw in the machine which will give you an edge then all the power to you.

[gobbledygeek]

I'd play a better game if one was available but unfortunately I believe all B.C. lower mainland casinos use CSMs (though if anyone knows otherwise let me know). My uninformed guess is that all casinos could go to CSMs tomorrow and in the long run it wouldn't even put a dent in the number of players (seen as how most play for entertainment, as I do).

The main question is with regards to whether the ShuffleKing has a card queue and how many cards are in that queue. Since one card is always visible that means at the very least there is a one card queue, I was curious if the queue is any longer or does it randomly draw a card from the machine per draw. My guess is that it probably has a queue of some number of cards cuz wouldn't drawing a card from the machine on every draw slow down the dealing?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by gobbledygeek

I was wondering if the fed in cards are shuffled into the deck immediately and thus can possibly appear in the next round of cards or whether there is a delay.

According to the Shufflemaster company the new machines do not suffer from the same latency of redistribution problem that the older models did. I have been told that the new models are still beatable, but I cannot say for sure. The old machines were beatable once you clocked the number of rounds it took to redistribute the cards, but that took quite a bit of observation and some tricky calculations (see Get The Edge at Blackjack for more info on clocking CSMs).

As far as I know the machines usually hold 4-6 decks of cards. I’m sure they have 8-deck machines as well but I have not seen one. If you want to know how many decks are being used you can always ask the dealer, or you can do it the hard way:

http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix13.html

For more information on beating CSMs read ZenGrifter’s interview, Get The Edge at Blackjack, the Shufflemaster website, the Shufflemaster patent applications (which will have internal schematics as well as full descriptions of the technology used), and the Borisbj21 page (http://www.borisbj21.com/Page28/page28f.html). Be aware that the advice on the Boris site is completely idiotic, but the descriptions of the machines are pretty good. I believe they can be beat (especially the old ones!), but it will take a huge amount of homework. There are many different ways to get an advantage.

Originally Posted by gobbledygeek

Yesterday I noticed the running count hit +17 with about 3 of the 5 decks remaining (true count about +5) but then the discarded cards were fed into the ShuffleKing.

So the casino dealt out two decks of cards before reinserting the discards? That is odd. Usually they reinsert the discards after every round. You may be able to take advantage of that situation if you play it right.

-Sonny-

[gobbledygeek]

Originally Posted by Sonny

So the casino dealt out two decks of cards before reinserting the discards? That is odd. Usually they reinsert the discards after every round. You may be able to take advantage of that situation if you play it right.

Really depends on the dealer as to how many cards pile up in the discard tray before re-inserting them into the machine. Some will do it after every round or two, others will let the tray build up to about 1 deck while others forget and let the discard tray pile up until the machine won't spit out any more cards (about 2 decks). Count rarely has time to get increase/decrease very much but it does sometimes go to +/- 4 on last round.

Thanks for the info. I'm not sold on the shuffle tracking at all. Still interested if there is a queue of cards not affected by the cards being re-inserted (thus can take advantage of one more round at a high count) - similar to "latency of redistribution" mentioned in articles I think but not quite as hokey.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by gobbledygeek

Still interested if there is a queue of cards not affected by the cards being re-inserted (thus can take advantage of one more round at a high count) - similar to "latency of redistribution" mentioned in articles I think but not quite as hokey.

Why is it hokey to calculate the size of the queue using statistical methods? I'll admit that it is very cumbersome, but it is probably a more reliable method of beating a specific machine than using a generalized approach based on the machine's make and model. There's more than one way to find the size of the queue, and clocking the specific machine is probably the quickest and most accurate method. It'll also save you a lot of time reading schematics.

-Sonny-

[gobbledygeek]

Originally Posted by Sonny

Why is it hokey to calculate the size of the queue using statistical methods? I'll admit that it is very cumbersome, but it is probably a more reliable method of beating a specific machine than using a generalized approach based on the machine's make and model. There's more than one way to find the size of the queue, and clocking the specific machine is probably the quickest and most accurate method. It'll also save you a lot of time reading schematics.

-Sonny-

I wasn't aware any of the articles mentioned a statistical way of calculating the queue; I only gleaned over some of the articles, I'll have to reread them when I get some time. I thought most of the articles had to do with attempting to estimate what clumps of cards were gonna show up next (something that is way beyond me, plus seems a little fishy).

[Sonny]

Oops, I almost forgot! Clarke Cant talks about beating CSMs in his monumental work:

http://www.bjrnet.com/archive/BlackjackTherapy.htm

-Sonny-

[sagefr0g]

Originally Posted by gobbledygeek

Does anyone know how the ShuffleKing shuffle machine works? I was wondering if the fed in cards are shuffled into the deck immediately and thus can possibly appear in the next round of cards or whether there is a delay. Is there already a buffered queue of cards that awaits to be dealt and if so how many cards are in this queue?

My local casino only has CSMs so I just flat bet the minimum with basic strategy and count for fun. Yesterday I noticed the running count hit +17 with about 3 of the 5 decks remaining (true count about +5) but then the discarded cards were fed into the ShuffleKing. I was curious if the next round could possibly be played with that count or if it was absolutely necessary to reset to 0. I was third base with 5 other players at the table.

i had an opportunity to see inside of the shuffleking csm one time. the machine jammed on the dealer and the pit boss came and opened it up. the inside of it has like a ferris wheel. the cards when they are inserted in the top feed into the "seats" of the "ferris wheel". each "seat" looked as if it held about five or six cards. i'm not sure how many "seats" were in it. but since the thing could hold up to eight decks i'm guessing there would have been about fifty two seats. that about how it looked also. so from what i could tell what the thing does is that wheel spins in there and feeds a certain number of cards to the slider where the dealer pulls the cards from the machine.
so i wouldn't say the thing has a buffer so much as it has probably five or six cards sitting in the tray waiting for the dealer to pull them along with the other fifty two or so "seats" that are holding about five or six cards in this wheel that is spinning about waiting to accept and deliver more cards.
that was my take on it gobblygeek so i hope this helps.
best regards,
mr fr0g :D

[gobbledygeek]

Originally Posted by sagefr0g

so i wouldn't say the thing has a buffer so much as it has probably five or six cards sitting in the tray waiting for the dealer to pull them along

That would be my guess too. If that was the case I would be able to use an advantagous count for one more round after the discarded cards are fed back into the machine, but probably only if I was playing heads up with the dealer.