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  #21  
Old September 2nd, 2011, 04:24 AM
MoldedTruths MoldedTruths is offline
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Default Lol

Read up on what "no mid-shoe entry" and "bad penetration" means to an MIT-style card counting team and then take a little tour through the dump casinos in your locale. You'll see what a silly idea this is.
  #22  
Old September 2nd, 2011, 11:51 AM
RocDav RocDav is offline
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There are no investors and no one willing to train at this time. Anyone who wanted to invest, for the next few months the main investment would be time for training the players in whatever style seemed fit. I'm all for learning different strategies than the BP with spotters at the table. It's old. I'm still reading and learning new things everyday. I think it would accelerate the process to have like-minded individuals to talk to and play "practice" blackjack with. So if there is someone who is interested let me know. I don't think I can PM yet, but friend me and we can talk later.

Last edited by RocDav; September 3rd, 2011 at 02:47 AM. Reason: Privacy
  #23  
Old September 3rd, 2011, 03:27 AM
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Tarzan Tarzan is offline
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Default Stanley Steamer

I was entertaining at my home and the woman in question saw my cat and said, "Oh how cute... What's it's name?" "I call him Stanley. He ended up with that name because sometimes he doesn't use the litter box and leaves a giant steamer there on the carpet someplace and you end up with a Stanley Steamer!"

What does this have to do with a card-counting team you may ask? Plenty when you really think about it. I am unfamiliar with the intricacies of a card-counting team first hand but have read about it out of books published long ago that are a little out of touch with today's blackjack games available, which are for the most part unplayable. What was quite feasible back in the 80's is not applicable today. Back in the 80's you could be a lone player that is a good counter using a basic count and has a few thousand backing him and be somewhat successful. You could be part of a (functional and successful) team and really do well. That same person would fail miserably in today's blackjack environment.

Why does this not work today? It's for multiple reasons some of which are as follows:

Actual ability- There's a lot of people out there that think they are more talented than they truly are. I have seen some of this first hand and a cold, hard dose of reality will kick in eventually on that one. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, so figuring out who the weak links are on a novice team could end up being quite costly the way I see it. This game involves dealing with fractions of percentage points and the smallest of errors have huge effects. Who's going to be the one to drop a big "steamer" onto the carpet.

Work ethic- Most people these days, particularly younger people have little resolve and work ethic. They want things nice and easy with no difficult hurdles. They want it all handed to them hassle free and will stop short of following through with the effort required for success. I studied hard and had an advanced count down to a science long before I ever walked into my first casino. I was devoted to being the best I could possibly be. Who's going to be too lazy to go all the way to the litter box?

Modern blackjack- The game has become more difficult for anyone across the board and some of the ideal conditions for team play that existed years ago no longer exist today. Many games today are unplayable by any standards, whether as an individual or by any team play. Who's going to not know where the litter box is?

Honesty and integrity- Back to that weakest link thing... Anti-trust issues and concerns about "chips going south" occur. I've read stories of the use of lie-detector tests on team members (which are useless and easily beaten if you know how), I've heard of suspicions that caused rifts, etc. Greed and stupidity often override common sense. Who is going to intentionally miss the litter box and leave a "steamer" or two over behind it someplace?


I don't actually know anything about team play because I have never been part of a team and only read about it. I have read and heard about lots of problems with it all though. Here's my take on this and how I look at it though. As a novice player, you have to develop, gain experience and be an incredibly proficient player to be part of a team. Here's the "catch 22" of it all, the paradox... If you have developed into an extremely proficient player, worthy of being on a team it means you have been successful financially. If you are successful financially, then why do you need a team? Playing as an individual means you get all the profits instead of a mere percentage. I understand the concept of lowering fluctuations/variance but the price you pay for this is getting a piece of the pie instead of the whole pie! I personally would never be on a team. I just have no need of it, most of the players I know of up to and including professional players use an inferior count to my own and I have sufficient bankroll that I need not worry about variance issues. Being identified as being part of a team can be detrimental to your longevity and can cause you to have to travel a wider geographical range, hence additional travel expenses. This could cause you to make the same money playing at higher stakes, (hence more exposure) to make what you would make in a smaller geographical area at lower stakes as an individual in theory.

Would I trust some novice players with my money? No. Would I think a group of half-assed hi-lo players could be effective enough to be worth tying up any of my bankroll? No. Would I have full faith that the honesty and integrity factor is a non-issue? No. Would I want to be bothered with any involvement in such an endeavor in any capacity at all? No.

There are people on this site that know a lot more about this than I. I have always been a lone player and in my early years didn't know any other professional players and only read about them. By the time I had lots of experience and could have easily qualified to be on a team, I had a sufficient bankroll that I had no need for such a thing, along with my career not allowing the time to devote to such a thing full time. Perhaps some of the people that are familiar with team play, have experienced it or know more about it could paint a rosier picture than all this and throw me their take on my "catch 22" paradox?

Last edited by Tarzan; September 3rd, 2011 at 12:22 PM.
  #24  
Old September 3rd, 2011, 09:13 AM
b jay cobbson's Avatar
b jay cobbson b jay cobbson is offline
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Default Reply to "Stanley Steamer" - POM

Excellent posting Tarzan. On Wong's site it would surely in "Post of the Month" and win the $100 bounty. Congratulations!!

B Jay Cobbson
  #25  
Old September 3rd, 2011, 05:04 PM
RocDav RocDav is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarzan View Post
I was entertaining at my home and the woman in question saw my cat and said, "Oh how cute... What's it's name?" "I call him Stanley. He ended up with that name because sometimes he doesn't use the litter box and leaves a giant steamer there on the carpet someplace and you end up with a Stanley Steamer!"

What does this have to do with a card-counting team you may ask? Plenty when you really think about it. I am unfamiliar with the intricacies of a card-counting team first hand but have read about it out of books published long ago that are a little out of touch with today's blackjack games available, which are for the most part unplayable. What was quite feasible back in the 80's is not applicable today. Back in the 80's you could be a lone player that is a good counter using a basic count and has a few thousand backing him and be somewhat successful. You could be part of a (functional and successful) team and really do well. That same person would fail miserably in today's blackjack environment.

Why does this not work today? It's for multiple reasons some of which are as follows:

Actual ability- There's a lot of people out there that think they are more talented than they truly are. I have seen some of this first hand and a cold, hard dose of reality will kick in eventually on that one. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, so figuring out who the weak links are on a novice team could end up being quite costly the way I see it. This game involves dealing with fractions of percentage points and the smallest of errors have huge effects. Who's going to be the one to drop a big "steamer" onto the carpet.

Work ethic- Most people these days, particularly younger people have little resolve and work ethic. They want things nice and easy with no difficult hurdles. They want it all handed to them hassle free and will stop short of following through with the effort required for success. I studied hard and had an advanced count down to a science long before I ever walked into my first casino. I was devoted to being the best I could possibly be. Who's going to be too lazy to go all the way to the litter box?

Modern blackjack- The game has become more difficult for anyone across the board and some of the ideal conditions for team play that existed years ago no longer exist today. Many games today are unplayable by any standards, whether as an individual or by any team play. Who's going to not know where the litter box is?

Honesty and integrity- Back to that weakest link thing... Anti-trust issues and concerns about "chips going south" occur. I've read stories of the use of lie-detector tests on team members (which are useless and easily beaten if you know how), I've heard of suspicions that caused rifts, etc. Greed and stupidity often override common sense. Who is going to intentionally miss the litter box and leave a "steamer" or two over behind it someplace?


I don't actually know anything about team play because I have never been part of a team and only read about it. I have read and heard about lots of problems with it all though. Here's my take on this and how I look at it though. As a novice player, you have to develop, gain experience and be an incredibly proficient player to be part of a team. Here's the "catch 22" of it all, the paradox... If you have developed into an extremely proficient player, worthy of being on a team it means you have been successful financially. If you are successful financially, then why do you need a team? Playing as an individual means you get all the profits instead of a mere percentage. I understand the concept of lowering fluctuations/variance but the price you pay for this is getting a piece of the pie instead of the whole pie! I personally would never be on a team. I just have no need of it, most of the players I know of up to and including professional players use an inferior count to my own and I have sufficient bankroll that I need not worry about variance issues. Being identified as being part of a team can be detrimental to your longevity and can cause you to have to travel a wider geographical range, hence additional travel expenses. This could cause you to make the same money playing at higher stakes, (hence more exposure) to make what you would make in a smaller geographical area at lower stakes as an individual in theory.

Would I trust some novice players with my money? No. Would I think a group of half-assed hi-lo players could be effective enough to be worth tying up any of my bankroll? No. Would I have full faith that the honesty and integrity factor is a non-issue? No. Would I want to be bothered with any involvement in such an endeavor in any capacity at all? No.

There are people on this site that know a lot more about this than I. I have always been a lone player and in my early years didn't know any other professional players and only read about them. By the time I had lots of experience and could have easily qualified to be on a team, I had a sufficient bankroll that I had no need for such a thing, along with my career not allowing the time to devote to such a thing full time. Perhaps some of the people that are familiar with team play, have experienced it or know more about it could paint a rosier picture than all this and throw me their take on my "catch 22" paradox?
The catch 22 is correct. But in my mind, that's not what team play is about. It's about individual development. If somebody came up to me and handed me 2million dollars today and told me to go play blackjack with it and win, I would hand the money back and say, "I need to be trained first."

I think we all got off on the wrong foot when I mentioned money in my very first post on this website. What I really want is training, to show that I am proficient in my training, and then to use my training to go out to real venues and make real money. I can read books till my eyes fall out, but I'm more of a hands on kind of person. That's why I bought twelve decks of cards, two sets of chips, and will order a shoe pretty soon. I just want somebody to play with that knows what they are doing, or at least somebody better than my girlfriend and her two daughters. They aren't interested in long-term wins, they just want to have fun. I think its fun to focus on long-term wins. I am a young person, with a strong work ethic, who would give anything to make somebody big amounts of money in exchange for training and 5% of whatever the winnings were. But first, I have to know if making big amounts of money is even possible, and figure out how big a bankroll is needed to have the EV to where it would be profitable for both the investor and myself and other team members.
  #26  
Old September 3rd, 2011, 09:19 PM
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zengrifter zengrifter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b jay cobbson View Post
Excellent posting Tarzan. On Wong's site it would surely in "Post of the Month" and win the $100 bounty. Congratulations!!
Has'nt Ken instituted the $100 POM yet?
Someone make a poll and see if the membership wants it. zg
  #27  
Old September 4th, 2011, 08:59 PM
matt21 matt21 is offline
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I have some comments for the OP - maybe they will help.

I have not played on a pure-counting team myself, but let me share how one associate of mine did it. She got interested in card counting, so practised, learned and studied it a lot. Then she found an online advert from a BJ counting team looking for new players - because she had worked hard, she passed the checkouts first time round and was then able to play without investing any of her own funds. I think responding to an actual advertisement like that, is much more likely to result in getting into teamplay, then asking for investors or team-manners on a forum such as this one. As to my friend, after a while she saved up enough money from her share of the winnings to start her own BR. She was of course lucky in that the team was based in the city she lived, and she got pretty good positive variance right from the word 'go'.

There is no substitute for hard work and fierce determination

Good luck,
Matt21
  #28  
Old September 5th, 2011, 04:01 AM
Percy Percy is offline
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For the OP.

I really believe that if you want it enough, it will happen for you.

Iím sure you will have to give up a lot, and I doubt the money will be as good as you think.

But if you are as keen as your posts suggest, your brain will figure out a way to make it work.

If the appeal of the game is predominately to do with getting rich, it wonít be long before your enthusiasm wanes.

Definitely do not rely on blackjack as your source of income.

Best of luck.
  #29  
Old September 5th, 2011, 05:15 PM
RocDav RocDav is offline
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Default Thank you

Thank you for all the criticism and all the advice given. I will truly take it to heart and consider everything that has been said. I have heard talk of a BJ team starting up previously at USA, but the word of mouth has not yet reached my ears. I figured someone on here might know the right direction to point.

I have no "**** stories" to supplement my posts with at the moment so I'll leave it at that. :-) I did find that post very amusing. Maybe I'll be back on the forums with some theory advancements and new ways to play in a year or two. Back to reading. :-)
  #30  
Old September 5th, 2011, 06:28 PM
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Midnght Cow Midnght Cow is offline
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If your idea for a BJ is centered on the BP concept, the coast casinos near you have pretty much shut that down. Most DD tables have no mid-deck entry, and most 6D tables have signs for "mid-deck entry $100 maximum bet" on the tables, even if the normal table max is $2500 or so.
 

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