AP move or just cheating?

[aslan]

Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey

I don't think it would be considered cheating, because the casino is supplying both the old cards and the new cards, and it was their decision to change one card instead of the whole shoe.

But you are intentionally damaging their property by spilling the drink, and if they figure out it was intentional they could get you for that.

Morally, it's cheating. You are deceiving the house into helping you mark the cards. Whether you trick an innocent party, even a house employee, who is doing so unbeknownst to himself, or you do so yourself, marking cards is cheating.

[Machinist]

Hmmmmm,
That is running really close to what I would call the darkside, I don't mind running in the gray area, sometimes a very dark gray area. But the dark area is kinda scarey. But then in my mind after all these years seeing the dark side of casinos themselves, ehh if the opportunity presents it self under the right conditions, I say Hammer them!!!!!

Machinist

[aslan]

Originally Posted by Machinist

Hmmmmm,
That is running really close to what I would call the darkside, I don't mind running in the gray area, sometimes a very dark gray area. But the dark area is kinda scarey. But then in my mind after all these years seeing the dark side of casinos themselves, ehh if the opportunity presents it self under the right conditions, I say Hammer them!!!!!

Machinist

As in, it's not so bad to cheat a cheater?

[shadroch]

How often do you think you could spill your drink before you are either banned or refused another drink?

[Machinist]

Originally Posted by aslan

As in, it's not so bad to cheat a cheater?

Maybe even more than that Aslan. I mean they don't really cheat, but they do put up a nice facade, hell even their buildings are fake, fake rocks, fake pillars, fake marble, the list goes on. Also that idiot from CET telling us that they are "concerned" about problem gambling..........yea right!!!!
I look at casinos as an illusion, all is not as it seems. So yea, if I can create my own illusion and fool them into thinking I'm just another patsy in the joint..............$$$$
Shadroch is right though, how many times can ya spill a drink? But on the other hand, if you have half a dozen joints with dirty cards, and are able to hit this scam perfectly with a very large bet, you certainly could make a decent car payment, very decent!!!
But still there are plenty of other ways of skinning a casino, without making a mess.

Machinist

[Automatic Monkey]

Originally Posted by aslan

Morally, it's cheating. You are deceiving the house into helping you mark the cards. Whether you trick an innocent party, even a house employee, who is doing so unbeknownst to himself, or you do so yourself, marking cards is cheating.

"Morally?" I'm sorry, you have used a word I do not recognize in the context of dealings with casinos. At the table I'm as deceitful and sleazy as I can profitably be, limited by what I can get away with. This is not church, this is not civil society; these are people who hate us and want to do us harm by taking our money, and I will respond in kind.

In a practical sense, I don't think this is a very worthwhile move, because it involves an awkward physical act, it is time-consuming, and you are only marking one ace out of a shoe. But if I was going to do it, I would wait until I have two aces and can't resplit.

Also if you are going to do any moves involving altered cards, this is best done as a team. The guy who physically does the marking or bending bets a minimum and plays normally, leaves when he is done, and is literally out of town before his partner is there playing the marks. Until they can establish a connection between the two people it is bulletproof.

[Gamblor]

Originally Posted by shadroch

How often do you think you could spill your drink before you are either banned or refused another drink?

There's other less obvious ways to mark up a card. Most casinos will of course take out cards for any even relatively subtle marks.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey

"Morally?" I'm sorry, you have used a word I do not recognize in the context of dealings with casinos. At the table I'm as deceitful and sleazy as I can profitably be, limited by what I can get away with. This is not church, this is not civil society; these are people who hate us and want to do us harm by taking our money, and I will respond in kind.

In a practical sense, I don't think this is a very worthwhile move, because it involves an awkward physical act, it is time-consuming, and you are only marking one ace out of a shoe. But if I was going to do it, I would wait until I have two aces and can't resplit.

Also if you are going to do any moves involving altered cards, this is best done as a team. The guy who physically does the marking or bending bets a minimum and plays normally, leaves when he is done, and is literally out of town before his partner is there playing the marks. Until they can establish a connection between the two people it is bulletproof.

It's not bulletproof. The link can be made through tape replays. It's like robbing a jewelry store with a camera recording you without a mask over your face.

I'm not a choir boy. I do know the difference between cheating and not cheating, and I have done things in the past I am not proud of today. If it were morally permissible to do whatever I could to take the casino's money, I would get a job with a casino because some of the biggest and easiest scams have been inside jobs.

[Jack_Black]

Macho: Darkside?! No way is this the darkside. is it in the DMZ between the dark and grey area? I believe after all the responses on here, I've made that conclusion. will I be walking along the DMZ, poking at it, taunting it, stepping in, stepping out? well........

Shad: I expect once per shift. twice and I'm sure I'd be kicked out for being belligerent. assuming that most places change shoe cards once per shift, then that's all I need. This is a steering play, not a sequencing or ST play.

Aslan: is this a joke too or not?

AM: I'm with you. Morals?!?! the entire casino business model is based upon duping the sucker with a so called "fair" game. hell, why is 3 card monty illegal, yet casino games aren't? they both dupe you. better yet, why does cheating in a poker room get you 86ed, but cheating in a casino gets you a felony?

I've made the conclusion that this move is absolutely, and most definitely is........in the gray area. something that could land you in detention temporarily, but with a decent lawyer could get you off and even sue for wrongful imprisonment. It was the casino's choice not to change out the whole shoe. The info of the new Ace in the shoe is available to everyone at the table.(seems to be a legal standard for determining cheating everywhere)

I put this into the Tommy Hyland AC warp play category. he found a fault in casino procedure. they should've changed cards earlier to prevent him from winning an exorbitant sum. anyway, do it at your own risk. YMMV.

[QFIT]

Originally Posted by aslan

You could, but you'd be like the man who rode the MTA in the MTA Song by the Kingston Trio. No shortcuts- has to be an ace.

He may scout forever through the tables of Vegas,
He's the man who never returned.

Fun song, but you're dating yourself.

This is clear cheating as you are purposely causing a card to be marked. The new card, not the old card.