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Old October 4th, 2011, 11:23 AM
FrankieT FrankieT is offline
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Default A few questions about 86ing...

If you've been 86ed (read the trespass act) and come back to a casino, do they have the right to detain you (and call the cops), or do they have to give you the option to leave?

If you do go back and start playing, do they have the right to withhold a jackpot or any winnings should they "suddenly find out" you were 86ed? Lets say for example you hit a large jackpot on the LL; obviously there's a good chance that you are going to be IDed for tax purposes, and then they'd find out you were 86ed.

I've never been 86ed yet, but was just wondering if the situation should arise.

Last edited by FrankieT; October 5th, 2011 at 05:13 PM.
  #2  
Old October 4th, 2011, 03:10 PM
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kewljason kewljason is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankieT View Post
If you get 86ed (read the trespass act), do they have the right to detain you (and call the cops) if you come back, or do they have to give you the option to leave?

If you do go back and start playing, do they have the right to withhold a jackpot or any winnings should they suddenly find out you were 86ed? Lets say for example you hit a large jackpot on the LL; obviously there's a good chance that you are going to be IDed for tax purposes, and then they'd find out you were 86ed.

I've never been 86ed yet, but was just wondering if the situation should arise.
What jurisdiction are you speaking of?

It is my understanding here in las vegas that The threat of being arrested for trespassing is really a bunch of hogwash casinos use to try to intimidate you. In the Wilkinson Case back in the 70's, the judge ruled that the patron had to be given the opportunity to leave, even if he/she had previously been read the trespass act. Upon returning each and every time the patron must be given the opportunity to leave prior to being detained.

A more recent case, won by Bob N against Jerry's Nugget, goes even further to state that the casino's do not even have the right to eject players without cause, meaning players deemed as advantage players, or "to good for us" as the casinos like to say, cannot be ejected from the casino, only told they can't play the game.

http://www.bj21.com/advantageplay/la...passcase.shtml

Again, this is the law in Vegas. Not sure what area you were requesting info about. And even here, with this being the law, that doesn't mean the casinos will actually follow the law, without you spending time and money to force them to. And really there is no benefit to do so as they can still deny you the opportunity to play the game.
  #3  
Old October 5th, 2011, 03:45 PM
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creeping panther creeping panther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankieT View Post
If you get 86ed (read the trespass act), do they have the right to detain you (and call the cops) if you come back, or do they have to give you the option to leave?

If you do go back and start playing, do they have the right to withhold a jackpot or any winnings should they suddenly find out you were 86ed? Lets say for example you hit a large jackpot on the LL; obviously there's a good chance that you are going to be IDed for tax purposes, and then they'd find out you were 86ed.

I've never been 86ed yet, but was just wondering if the situation should arise.
There is no clear cut answer. If you are on the Rez., as I take it you mostly are, it depends on whether the Tribe has their own police force, or hires it out to the local sheriff. I know the ones with their own police and jail are very capable of arrest and fine and lock up. Those that have the local police on hire usually ban from all games but slots, unless you were violent.

Yes, if you win a jack pot you are very liable to have the money withheld since you are there illegally and this has happened to players.

To be Trespassed is a very bad thing and I suggest you go out of your way to avoid it.

CP
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Old October 5th, 2011, 03:57 PM
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QFIT QFIT is offline
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The second part of the question is the more important, in my mind. In LV, they do have the right to tell you that you cannot play. If you decide to play anyhow, then it can be easily argued that they have the right to not pay winnings. Particularly important for a game like VP. You can argue that they purposely let you play knowing they would refuse to pay winnings but accept losses. But, thatís a difficult argument and could result in a lot of cost and time.

Disclaimer: IANAL
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Old October 5th, 2011, 04:05 PM
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kewljason kewljason is offline
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Originally Posted by QFIT View Post
The second part of the question is the more important, in my mind. In LV, they do have the right to tell you that you cannot play. If you decide to play anyhow, then it can be easily argued that they have the right to not pay winnings. Particularly important for a game like VP. You can argue that they purposely let you play knowing they would refuse to pay winnings but accept losses. But, thatís a difficult argument and could result in a lot of cost and time.

Disclaimer: IANAL
Seems to me Bob N addressed this a bit on last weeks show. He stated something to the effect that by dealing the cards the casino "accepts" your wager and then must pay that wager even if you are not permitted to play that game. I took it from the way his said it, that was only his professional opinion, not something that has been tried and proved. Also wonder how that would translate into machine play.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 04:15 PM
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Bobís a lawyer and Iím not, and he's a specialist at that. But, if you are playing a machine that you have been legally warned you cannot play, or play BJ with a disguise, or even look a bit different, and they have a video of you being Tíed, it sounds like a tough argument. And I believe they can hold a Royal Flush payoff until a ruling says otherwise.
  #7  
Old October 5th, 2011, 04:37 PM
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Automatic Monkey Automatic Monkey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kewljason View Post
Seems to me Bob N addressed this a bit on last weeks show. He stated something to the effect that by dealing the cards the casino "accepts" your wager and then must pay that wager even if you are not permitted to play that game. I took it from the way his said it, that was only his professional opinion, not something that has been tried and proved. Also wonder how that would translate into machine play.
There's a difference between being banned by the casino and being on the state exclusion list. If you are self-banned you cannot receive a jackpot, but the casino cannot keep it. (I don't know what would happen if you won a jackpot on an involuntary exclusion list like they have in NJ, but that's got to be a rare situation.) A state-run casino cannot keep your winnings just because they told you not to come back before- they took your money and the bet is legal. But a tribal casino could possibly keep your money- the only thing restraining them is bad press.
  #8  
Old October 5th, 2011, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey View Post
If you are self-banned you cannot receive a jackpot, but the casino cannot keep it.
So what happens to the money then? If you can't keep it, and the casino can't keep it, who gets to keep it?
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Old October 5th, 2011, 06:14 PM
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So what happens to the money then? If you can't keep it, and the casino can't keep it, who gets to keep it?
I can no longer see AM's posts, but there exists an old maxim, ostensibly by Thomas Draxis in 1616, that possession is nine points of the law. It isnít a de jure law anywhere. Itís just de facto. That is, it is what actually happens as opposed to what should happen. In AP play, I am more interested in what does happen than what should happen. If someone has something that you have a right to, you are the one that has to fight for it. And that fight may require large amounts of money and time, no matter how good your case or cause. So, in the case of a jackpot that requires someone to come out of the woodwork and pay you, they have the money. And, rightly or wrongly, they can hold it. So, in answer to your question, the casino keeps it.

Iím talking reality, not right-or-wrong. If you have been Tíed, keep your buy-ins small, donít carry large numbers of chips, and donít make bets with large ratio payoffs.
  #10  
Old October 6th, 2011, 12:03 AM
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Everyone always says, when you get the tap, grab your chips and head straight for the door. Can the casino stop you from coming back later to cash those chips in? Or can they refuse to cash them for you?
 

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