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  #21  
Old October 15th, 2011, 11:14 AM
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Liquid Chips Liquid Chips is offline
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There are a couple of things that concern me about use of RFIDs in caisno chips and under each spot on the table.

I don't mind that there are RFID chips being used and tracking how much you bet. But I do mind if the table is using CSMs in combination with RFIDs. This would be like tracking HOW you bet and anticipating your bet size on the next hand and manipulating the draw of cards to you. It would be like playing at an online casino that analyzes your style of play and draws cards accordingly to make you lose overall. I highly suspect this was the case last month when I played at one of those Shufflemaster I-tables with a CSM and a touch-screen computer at each player's post embedded in the table. The casino knows what card is going to you and knowing how you play, the cards can be manipulated. The player card has my history and I have won over $2,000 on two trips previously. I was again up by $400 when the CSM started jamming up on the dealer causing him to have to take several tries to get a card. I started to lose a lot more often and getting strange hands. Later, when the dealer notified the pit boss about the cards being bent strangely, that was when I started thinking that the cards are being manipulated within the CSM.

So I now only will play regular manual shoe games or at tables with a CSM if I know that no RFIDs are used or if the RFIDs are only used for tracking bets but not analyzing betting strategy.
  #22  
Old October 15th, 2011, 03:18 PM
nicetrades200303 nicetrades200303 is offline
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Originally Posted by flyingwind View Post
Can some please pm me the list of places in LV that uses RFID?
At these places, do the dealers push a button during each round?
The places on the strip and away from the strip that have decent pen (2D or 6D) that I play at, the dealers don't push a button each round as there are no buttons on the table to push.

A couple of Indian casinos I play at have those buttons on the table, and the dealers do push the button prior to dealing each round. I ignorantly asked most of the dealers why they push the button and was told that "So we can keep track of your play for comps." It's more than just for comps: It's probably for tracking your spread, too.
  #23  
Old October 15th, 2011, 04:35 PM
BJgenius007 BJgenius007 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Chips View Post
There are a couple of things that concern me about use of RFIDs in caisno chips and under each spot on the table.

I don't mind that there are RFID chips being used and tracking how much you bet. But I do mind if the table is using CSMs in combination with RFIDs. This would be like tracking HOW you bet and anticipating your bet size on the next hand and manipulating the draw of cards to you. It would be like playing at an online casino that analyzes your style of play and draws cards accordingly to make you lose overall. I highly suspect this was the case last month when I played at one of those Shufflemaster I-tables with a CSM and a touch-screen computer at each player's post embedded in the table. The casino knows what card is going to you and knowing how you play, the cards can be manipulated. The player card has my history and I have won over $2,000 on two trips previously. I was again up by $400 when the CSM started jamming up on the dealer causing him to have to take several tries to get a card. I started to lose a lot more often and getting strange hands. Later, when the dealer notified the pit boss about the cards being bent strangely, that was when I started thinking that the cards are being manipulated within the CSM.

So I now only will play regular manual shoe games or at tables with a CSM if I know that no RFIDs are used or if the RFIDs are only used for tracking bets but not analyzing betting strategy.
You are confused. iTables don't use CSM. They use ASM to shuffle the entire 8 decks, then put the entire 8 decks to a container of tight room. So there is no way or room to swap cards inside that container.

But this happened to me twice. The TC was super high and I placed max bets. After playing two hands and TC stayed high, the red alert lighted on. The dealer called pit boss to the table. The pit boss said there is something wrong with the deck. They need to reshuffle.
  #24  
Old October 15th, 2011, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BJgenius007 View Post
You are confused. iTables don't use CSM. They use ASM to shuffle the entire 8 decks, then put the entire 8 decks to a container of tight room. So there is no way or room to swap cards inside that container.

But this happened to me twice. The TC was super high and I placed max bets. After playing two hands and TC stayed high, the red alert lighted on. The dealer called pit boss to the table. The pit boss said there is something wrong with the deck. They need to reshuffle.
I've never seen such a contraption, you mean they don't use the clear plastic shoe found in most casinos?

Hmm if this is true, maybe you can start up a nice lawsuit Positive EV!
  #25  
Old October 15th, 2011, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BJgenius007 View Post
But this happened to me twice. The TC was super high and I placed max bets. After playing two hands and TC stayed high, the red alert lighted on. The dealer called pit boss to the table. The pit boss said there is something wrong with the deck. They need to reshuffle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamblor View Post
Hmm if this is true, maybe you can start up a nice lawsuit Positive EV!
I second what G said, if indeed what you BJG described truly happens the majority of the time you play there.
  #26  
Old October 15th, 2011, 08:31 PM
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Liquid Chips Liquid Chips is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BJgenius007 View Post
You are confused. iTables don't use CSM. They use ASM to shuffle the entire 8 decks, then put the entire 8 decks to a container of tight room. So there is no way or room to swap cards inside that container....
The first time I played at the Harrington Delaware casino's I-table, they used the ASM. But the last three times I went, they used a CSM. After each hand, the dealer puts the dealt cards back into the machine. There is no build up of cards in the discard tray. This is a CSM.
  #27  
Old October 24th, 2011, 10:56 AM
joeblackjack joeblackjack is offline
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Originally Posted by flyingwind View Post
Can some please pm me the list of places in LV that uses RFID?
At these places, do the dealers push a button during each round?
I've only seen one place (an Indian casino) use a button. Never seen it in Vegas. If it happens, it doesn't happen on the strip.

Easiest way to tell if RFID is in active use is to go to the cage and look for a mouse-pad type thing on the counter in front of each cashier. You'll see this at Aria, Wynn, etc. They place any larger denomination chips you have on there and if you watch their computer screen it shows the value and a big green check mark.
  #28  
Old October 24th, 2011, 02:42 PM
BJgenius007 BJgenius007 is offline
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Originally Posted by joeblackjack View Post
I've only seen one place (an Indian casino) use a button. Never seen it in Vegas. If it happens, it doesn't happen on the strip.

Easiest way to tell if RFID is in active use is to go to the cage and look for a mouse-pad type thing on the counter in front of each cashier. You'll see this at Aria, Wynn, etc. They place any larger denomination chips you have on there and if you watch their computer screen it shows the value and a big green check mark.
One casino I played often is the Meadows. The dealer pushes the button before he or she deals every hand. Going to the cage, the cashier puts all chips on the mouse pad you described, including the $5 red chips, and it displays the total amount of money. Every chip has a RFID chip inside it, not just the $100 black chips or higher. The casinos are tracking everybody's spread. The eye in the sky will check all persons who are not flat betting. More than that, if the person is a winner to the cage, they will review the tapes to make sure if he or she is AP or not based on the spread pattern recorded. Doom day for APs are about to come.
  #29  
Old October 24th, 2011, 04:21 PM
joeblackjack joeblackjack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BJgenius007 View Post
One casino I played often is the Meadows. The dealer pushes the button before he or she deals every hand. Going to the cage, the cashier puts all chips on the mouse pad you described, including the $5 red chips, and it displays the total amount of money. Every chip has a RFID chip inside it, not just the $100 black chips or higher. The casinos are tracking everybody's spread. The eye in the sky will check all persons who are not flat betting. More than that, if the person is a winner to the cage, they will review the tapes to make sure if he or she is AP or not based on the spread pattern recorded. Doom day for APs are about to come.
You are correct that all chips in places that use RFID generally have the chips in them. I've just never had larger places in vegas bother putting amounts under $5k on the pad. One cashier at Aria was so busy looking at my playing history in the computer that she forgot to put a $25,000 chip on there (I suppose it's possible that I missed her doing it, but I was watching closely and the pad was closer to me than her) and the supervisor that came to approve the cashout either forgot as well or assumed the cashier had run it before she got there.

Last edited by joeblackjack; October 24th, 2011 at 04:27 PM.
  #30  
Old October 24th, 2011, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BJgenius007 View Post
The eye in the sky will check all persons who are not flat betting. More than that, if the person is a winner to the cage, they will review the tapes to make sure if he or she is AP or not based on the spread pattern recorded. Doom day for APs are about to come.
Maybe I'm whistling in the dark on this one, but haven't such predictions been common for 15 years?

A hell of a lot of non-APs spread like Herpes crossed with wildfire. Any AP-type spreading is already apparent to the motivated surveillance team, which
does not seem to have a mandate to watch every spreading player under current conditions. Why make a dealer push a button, thereby slowing down play and cutting the hourly drop and the rake, to do what they can already do from the tapes anyway?

(That last sentence assumes that casino management is reasonable: probably I should not have written it.)
 

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