Blackjack and Card Counting Forums - BlackjackInfo.com

  #1  
Old October 21st, 2011, 08:51 AM
johndoe johndoe is offline
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,442
Default Win tolerance?

Where do you think the 'breaking point' is for cumulative casino wins, that could result in a backoff?

Obviously this depends on the store, but it's probably roughly related to the top bet they accept, and the store's size. I expect it's also somewhat relative to average bet size. (i.e. a $10k cumulative win may not draw much scrutiny to a $500 average bettor, vs. a $50 average bettor).

For those playing rated: how much cumulative win have you gotten away with on a card?
  #2  
Old October 21st, 2011, 01:43 PM
Cardcounter Cardcounter is offline
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lake Tahoe and reno!
Posts: 799
Default

Each casino is different in that respect. Some casino owners have really deep pockets where a few thousand dollar win is just the cost of doing business and they don't really care that much where as other casinos would totally freakout on a few thousand dollar win. For instance the Siena in reno has a very limited bankroll and started to freak when a gambler playing blackjack was on a roll and was up about $600. The Siena was bought for only $4 million a really small amount for a hotel and casino. If you take a casino like the Bellajo in Vegas that has a massive bankroll and the casino cost over a $1 billion to build a few thousand dollar win is not going to hurt them too much so they probably don't care that much. I would say the pit boss at Bellajo would start to get a little nervous with a 6 to a 7 figure win.
  #3  
Old October 21st, 2011, 01:53 PM
Brock Windsor Brock Windsor is offline
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 693
Default

This is a topic that merits more discussion. A 10k win by a $500 better draws attention, but if you travelled a long way to play a great game and quickly win should you quit just because you are up 10k? If the win is on a game other than BJ, say you hit a hand that pays 20:1 on your $500 bet, I would think that would draw much less attention. Still I think any win over 10k by an individual is going to be reviewed in most stores, regardless of the game. I think the 100K mark is also a theshold where stores start to think "we don't know what this guy is doing, but we've seen enough of his wins that we don't like it, get rid of him". The exception to this would be if they know who you are and know you are a loser.
As for rated play I am in the camp that says one should never play rated. However.. IF I book a big loss at a store I RARELY play I may put in a card. Still this is a judgement call and if I have any reservations at all I don't do it.

I just read CC's post and will put in my extra $.02. The Sienna pit boss may sweat $600 at Blackjack, but it has nothing to do with the casino's BR, he is just afraid he'll get in trouble if it turns out the player was playing with skill. The Bellagio will not tolerate 100K wins from unknown players, they will be watching. If they peg the guy as a loser great, he'll be welcome back. But if you're betting grey chips they will be running your photo and rating your play.

Last edited by Brock Windsor; October 21st, 2011 at 02:18 PM.
  #4  
Old October 21st, 2011, 02:34 PM
blackjack avenger's Avatar
blackjack avenger blackjack avenger is offline
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,267
Default variables

Big betting
Big winning
High skilled play
Length of sessions
Number of sessions


The more you do, more likely to get scrutiny, more likely to get acted upon.
  #5  
Old October 21st, 2011, 02:59 PM
johndoe johndoe is offline
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,442
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock Windsor View Post
I think the 100K mark is also a theshold where stores start to think "we don't know what this guy is doing, but we've seen enough of his wins that we don't like it, get rid of him".
This is pretty much what I was getting at. Clearly any large session win is subject to review, but if we assume that the review won't catch the play (i.e. it's some carny game), the player could probably get away with it for a while more, until the store cried mercy. I'd guess your $100k level is about right, but have little experience to base it on.

This does bring up the relative heat risk of rated vs. non-rated play (again). I've noticed a lot more hawking by the floor when I wasn't playing rated, especially when betting large amounts. But I suppose if the eye can't pick it off then neither can the floor.
  #6  
Old October 21st, 2011, 04:19 PM
FLASH1296's Avatar
FLASH1296 FLASH1296 is offline
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: East Coast, U S A
Posts: 3,749
Send a message via ICQ to FLASH1296 Send a message via AIM to FLASH1296
Default


I have noticed a trend over the last 20 yrs.

Most casino's "choke point" (the level

of cumulative win they will tolerate) has slid

quite a bit over time. Long ago there was one

joint that I won > $250,000 at in < 6 months.

Nowadays they sweat any handy amount !
  #7  
Old October 21st, 2011, 05:18 PM
blackriver blackriver is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 364
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock Windsor View Post
This is a topic that merits more discussion. A 10k win by a $500 better draws attention, but if you travelled a long way to play a great game and quickly win should you quit just because you are up 10k? If the win is on a game other than BJ, say you hit a hand that pays 20:1 on your $500 bet, I would think that would draw much less attention. Still I think any win over 10k by an individual is going to be reviewed in most stores, regardless of the game. I think the 100K mark is also a theshold where stores start to think "we don't know what this guy is doing, but we've seen enough of his wins that we don't like it, get rid of him". The exception to this would be if they know who you are and know you are a loser.
As for rated play I am in the camp that says one should never play rated. However.. IF I book a big loss at a store I RARELY play I may put in a card. Still this is a judgement call and if I have any reservations at all I don't do it.

I just read CC's post and will put in my extra $.02. The Sienna pit boss may sweat $600 at Blackjack, but it has nothing to do with the casino's BR, he is just afraid he'll get in trouble if it turns out the player was playing with skill. The Bellagio will not tolerate 100K wins from unknown players, they will be watching. If they peg the guy as a loser great, he'll be welcome back. But if you're betting grey chips they will be running your photo and rating your play.
Grey chips? Is this a euphemism? Bellagio has no grey chips below $25,001. You mean black? thought 50k+ were plaques etc, maybe there grey
  #8  
Old October 21st, 2011, 05:52 PM
johndoe johndoe is offline
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,442
Default

I think he was just referring to $5k chips, which are often grey.
  #9  
Old October 21st, 2011, 06:18 PM
FLASH1296's Avatar
FLASH1296 FLASH1296 is offline
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: East Coast, U S A
Posts: 3,749
Send a message via ICQ to FLASH1296 Send a message via AIM to FLASH1296
Default

$5,000 chips are (always) GRAY in Atlantic City, but in Las Vegas they are (generally) BROWN.

Last edited by FLASH1296; October 21st, 2011 at 07:57 PM.
  #10  
Old October 21st, 2011, 07:59 PM
joeblackjack joeblackjack is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 34
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackriver View Post
Grey chips? Is this a euphemism? Bellagio has no grey chips below $25,001. You mean black? thought 50k+ were plaques etc, maybe there grey
Actually Bellagio has grey chips in both normal and Baccarat size. They are grey with red stripes on the sides. They are $100,000 denomination. I've actually had one of the normal sized ones in my hands....for about a day. Went to the cage and asked to color up some $25K chips for it. They had to call the casino manager to get approval just to give me one. Then I found out why: most of their own dealers have never seen one. I went to a table the next day to break it down, and the dealer immediately said "Uhh...I don't think we have $10,000 chips....is this fake?" I told her she had missed a zero. Then she called over the floorman, who had to call the cage to verify that I was authorized to have one before they would even break it down. Apparently they keep a list of anyone that has been playing with or has colored up to them.

Larger denomination chips are just a big pain.

As far as "choke point", you will find those numbers vary wildly. Although this doesn't apply to overall win, I once had a floorman at Bellagio tell me that, absent other concerns (such as counting or cheating), they weren't required to call surveillance until someone was winning or losing $75,000 or more in a session. At Luxor, that number is $3,000. It shows the relative attitudes toward sweating money, and I would assume a similar differential applies to overall win.

Last edited by joeblackjack; October 21st, 2011 at 08:23 PM.
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:53 PM.


Forum Software vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005-2011 Bayview Strategies LLC