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#11
November 2nd, 2011, 12:46 PM
 ringlejames Banned Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 166

Quote:
 Originally Posted by blackjacktilt I don't like the "whole lot more luck is needed" statement, but you are new to the game and you will learn that although short term luck is factor, luck alone will not and cannot beat this game in the long term. The luck factor applies to tournaments moreso than cash games. As far as reading material on tells, google "poker tells" and you will literally find hundreds of books. Matt Hilger, Phil Hellmuth and Mike Caro have the best books available on poker tells. If I were you (and I'm not), I would focus on starting hands, recognizing the importance of position and betting before I go for tells. After you get the above, learn the math of the game, then move on to tells. Tells should be the last thing you attempt to learn. When you do play, and when not in the pot, pick someone (or 2 people) and study them. Find their tell, try to guess what they are playing and what they are trying to do. It will all fall into place, but it will take a long time. You will progress, then you will be stuck for a while. You will progress some more, then be stuck for a while. It's a sick pattern and can be frustrating at times. Poker is about the three "P's". People, Position and Patience my friend. Good luck.
Lol. I agree with most of what you said. except the luck part. When I first hought of blackjack. I knew I need luck. Learning basic strategy was all about finding some of that luck. Then there was the learning counts systems. I have found most of the luck I am going to find in blackjack almost. I'm good. Some days I am great hitting up the high end of the standard deviation getting very lucky. Hold'em will be no different. I have to find the luck in my first two cards. Find the luck in probability and odds. Find the luck in proper betting. Finding the luck that reading tells gives you. And more.

I will however be taking it in stride. Not to get ahead of my self and walk in to the game with no preconceived notions. A Study hard for about a year by my self and another 2 or something penny and nicklin it with the friends and fam. All in due time and at its due time.

Being skilled at a casino game is all about finding the luck or wwhat others think is luck. lol My opinion.
#12
November 2nd, 2011, 02:05 PM
 blackriver Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 364
Hold em is easy

Many casino gift shops have a basic strategy card for poker like they do for blackjack. If you can't find it go to where you should always go, wizard of odds (http://wizardofodds.com/holdem). there is a lot of depth to the game, but if you follow basic strategy, DONT try to use tells and keep from going on tilt then you will be a winner in most games spread in a casino. To improve just pay attention when you are not in a hand, be rested, and learn to foster a fun atmosphere so fish will want to gamble, and discuss hands with other regs AWAY from the table, this is important because you should never talk poker strategy at the table. Its always tempting to tell everyone how great you played or bad they played or get a pros opinion about what you could' ve done better. But it reminds players that this is money and a battle field. any time someone starts talking about strategy you should immediately try to change the subject to strip clubs and golf/fishing.

This is the best out line of how to get good at poker I've ever seen. Good luck

Last edited by blackriver; November 2nd, 2011 at 02:08 PM.
#13
November 2nd, 2011, 02:15 PM
 Gamblor Executive Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Casino backroom Posts: 1,118

Quote:
 Originally Posted by aslan Confidence is good-- over-confidence is a sure recipe for disaster.
Maybe even over-confidence is good in NL Hold-em

Before playing BJ, used to be a more conservative play the odds type player, and basically ground out to even over hundreds of hours. Now that I play BJ more often, what usually happens is I wind up "fleeing" to the poker tables, almost with the intent of just wiling away my time and throwing around my money, and my results have been good. I try to lose and I win!

Poker is an odd game like that.

Before anyone gets too carried away with what I say, I just did piss away 1000 in less than an hour in 1-2 NL no less Poker has less variance than BJ my a\$\$. OK, at least the way I play.

Last edited by Gamblor; November 2nd, 2011 at 02:20 PM.
#14
November 2nd, 2011, 04:13 PM
 Dyepaintball12 Executive Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Mid-Michigan Posts: 1,547

Watch "Rounders".
#15
November 3rd, 2011, 05:24 PM
 ringlejames Banned Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 166

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Gamblor Maybe even over-confidence is good in NL Hold-em Before anyone gets too carried away with what I say, I just did piss away 1000 in less than an hour in 1-2 NL no less Poker has less variance than BJ my a\$\$. OK, at least the way I play.

Does bankroll management not lay a crucial part? I wouldn't play no-limit without less than \$2500. I would bring all of it out at once. Find a table witht that tired tired player that has been playing for a while. That guy you just know is drunk because you just saw him in the lobby. Huh I just saw that guy playing penny slots. That guy has money but he is losing like crazy. I played a few kinds of poker over the years. Finding the weak links and bottom feeders that are just there for "entertainment" cough cough gamblers cough cough. Those ones getting lucky playing for the first few times blushing after winning what is thought to be a huge pot. I can foresee I will be good. It is always the same looking players that lose no matter what game you are playing. I just want to get to that level first to where they wont know what hit'em. Low ballin it. High ballin it. There are many different ways to take money in every game of chance against another player.

Fun Fun.
#16
November 3rd, 2011, 05:38 PM
 blackjacktilt Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 262
Whoa

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ringlejames Does bankroll management not lay a crucial part? I wouldn't play no-limit without less than \$2500. I would bring all of it out at once. Find a table witht that tired tired player that has been playing for a while. That guy you just know is drunk because you just saw him in the lobby. Huh I just saw that guy playing penny slots. That guy has money but he is losing like crazy. I played a few kinds of poker over the years. Finding the weak links and bottom feeders that are just there for "entertainment" cough cough gamblers cough cough. Those ones getting lucky playing for the first few times blushing after winning what is thought to be a huge pot. I can foresee I will be good. It is always the same looking players that lose no matter what game you are playing. I just want to get to that level first to where they wont know what hit'em. Low ballin it. High ballin it. There are many different ways to take money in every game of chance against another player. Fun Fun.
Bankroll management is huge, so if you only have \$2500 and sit down with it all, you are just silly. This also implies you think you will playing something like \$5/\$10 NL... If you study for a year and play small ball poker for a year and hit a \$5/\$10 NL table, you will get crushed. \$5/\$10 is one of the most solid games out there. You are also talking like you watch too much poker on TV. You have no understanding of how much a grind poker really is. So my advice to you is, just play. Go out to your local casino, take \$300 to a \$1/2 NL game and see how you do. Keep track of your wins / losses, hours played, profit for each session and move up if you think you can. I'm trying to give you advice that I never received. I, like most, had to learn the hard way and it appears you will learn the hard way also. Most players who start out only progress so far because they think they are better than what they really are. Most rely on luck and blame the "stupid plays" that other people make. What they fail to realize is their own play is so predictable, they are fresh fish.
#17
November 3rd, 2011, 08:20 PM
 ringlejames Banned Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 166

Quote:
 Originally Posted by blackjacktilt Bankroll management is huge, so if you only have \$2500 and sit down with it all, you are just silly. This also implies you think you will playing something like \$5/\$10 NL... If you study for a year and play small ball poker for a year and hit a \$5/\$10 NL table, you will get crushed. \$5/\$10 is one of the most solid games out there. You are also talking like you watch too much poker on TV. You have no understanding of how much a grind poker really is. So my advice to you is, just play. Go out to your local casino, take \$300 to a \$1/2 NL game and see how you do. Keep track of your wins / losses, hours played, profit for each session and move up if you think you can. I'm trying to give you advice that I never received. I, like most, had to learn the hard way and it appears you will learn the hard way also. Most players who start out only progress so far because they think they are better than what they really are. Most rely on luck and blame the "stupid plays" that other people make. What they fail to realize is their own play is so predictable, they are fresh fish.
I am talking no limit 1-2 with \$2500. Playing to make say \$300 a sit down. Small ball it pairs and 3 card flush or straight after flop going in no more than 3 times pot. Small ball strategy works great if you choose your prey right. But lets not get ahead of our selves. Learn in strides. I been playing other forms of poker since I was 4. With the adults. I just never got into hold'em. I was just mentioning that there are those weak weak players in all forms of poker. It would be wrong for me not to take advantage of these moments. No hold'em for a year or so though on a casino level. Might get into some other ones but for the time being books, good games, and friday night poker. Advice taken. No problems. I just have this thing where leprechauns seem to dance on my shoulders. Reading people is key. Being an empath helps that. Being able to sense other peoples feelings. Very native background. Alright. Im ramblin now. I think its time to watch a movie or two.

1, 4 slugger
#18
November 3rd, 2011, 08:56 PM
 Gamblor Executive Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Casino backroom Posts: 1,118

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ringlejames I am talking no limit 1-2 with \$2500. Playing to make say \$300 a sit down. Small ball it pairs and 3 card flush or straight after flop going in no more than 3 times pot. 1, 4 slugger
I have no idea what your talking about as usual, but if you're implying that you require a \$2500 bankroll for 1-2 NL for a session, that is way too much. I would say \$600 is more than sufficient the way most people play.

As far as poker variance vs blackjack variance, I was being somewhat facetious when I brought up "losing" \$1000 before (not really, playing style is a consideration). In general I would agree yes poker is less variance than BJ - but its difficult to compare since the betting limits are different, its like comparing apples and oranges.

Just from my own personal experience, from hundreds of hours of play in limit holdem vs BJ play, I would definitely say poker is less variance. In limit hold-em, I don't recall ever more than lets say 3 session where I lost or won. Its usually lose 1, win 1, lose 3, win 2, lose 1, win 2, win 3, lose 2 in a row, etc. In BJ, its quite common where you lose, lets say 7 of 8 sessions, and then win 7 of 8 sessions.

Can't say I logged in enough hours in NL to form an opinion.

Last edited by Gamblor; November 3rd, 2011 at 09:09 PM.
#19
November 4th, 2011, 02:28 AM
 ringlejames Banned Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 166

Quote:
 Originally Posted by blackjacktilt Bankroll management is huge, so if you only have \$2500 and sit down with it all, you are just silly. This also implies you think you will playing something like \$5/\$10 NL... If you study for a year and play small ball poker for a year and hit a \$5/\$10 NL table, you will get crushed. \$5/\$10 is one of the most solid games out there. You are also talking like you watch too much poker on TV. You have no understanding of how much a grind poker really is. So my advice to you is, just play. Go out to your local casino, take \$300 to a \$1/2 NL game and see how you do. Keep track of your wins / losses, hours played, profit for each session and move up if you think you can. I'm trying to give you advice that I never received. I, like most, had to learn the hard way and it appears you will learn the hard way also. Most players who start out only progress so far because they think they are better than what they really are. Most rely on luck and blame the "stupid plays" that other people make. What they fail to realize is their own play is so predictable, they are fresh fish.
I dont need to play poker. I could most likely play blackjack for the rest of my life and make a great living. Oh man. Love it love it love it. Hit up a blackjack win for 3-4k pays six months rent. Have maybe two of them a year. That is pretty much the only big thing I have spent my winnings on.

Learning blackjack the way I play was a grind. I count yes but do more. Love 1 4 sluggs. I used to sit and play blackjack 4 hours a day minimum 16 hours a day max for almost three years. A grind. 4 straight days of playing marathon sessions starting with just \$500. Lost alot won more. Alot smoother now days. May not win as much as fast but dont lose nearly as much as I used too. Mainly because I now use a bankroll with heft too it. Last long. Out last a lot of those small-medium bouts of negative e.v.

Same idea I have for hold'em. Now granted I should probably have the 2500 in my pocket and use smaller banks of \$300 to play with. Instead of just taking it all out. Try to pick up all the players that only got about \$40 or something else real low. And after practice, alot of practice, that over sized bankroll should play nicely in picking them apart. mmmmhhhhhhhh hungrey. Cant wait but it is going to be a good long while. Man here I go rambling again. The math WILL work itself when I get done with it. And then the entrance strategy going after weak willed people. Building confidence and reading capabilitys. This next year is going to be fun. but the one after is going to be so much better.
#20
November 4th, 2011, 04:15 PM
 aslan Executive Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 8,683

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ringlejames I dont need to play poker. I could most likely play blackjack for the rest of my life and make a great living. Oh man. Love it love it love it. Hit up a blackjack win for 3-4k pays six months rent. Have maybe two of them a year. That is pretty much the only big thing I have spent my winnings on. Learning blackjack the way I play was a grind. I count yes but do more. Love 1 4 sluggs. I used to sit and play blackjack 4 hours a day minimum 16 hours a day max for almost three years. A grind. 4 straight days of playing marathon sessions starting with just \$500. Lost alot won more. Alot smoother now days. May not win as much as fast but dont lose nearly as much as I used too. Mainly because I now use a bankroll with heft too it. Last long. Out last a lot of those small-medium bouts of negative e.v. Same idea I have for hold'em. Now granted I should probably have the 2500 in my pocket and use smaller banks of \$300 to play with. Instead of just taking it all out. Try to pick up all the players that only got about \$40 or something else real low. And after practice, alot of practice, that over sized bankroll should play nicely in picking them apart. mmmmhhhhhhhh hungrey. Cant wait but it is going to be a good long while. Man here I go rambling again. The math WILL work itself when I get done with it. And then the entrance strategy going after weak willed people. Building confidence and reading capabilitys. This next year is going to be fun. but the one after is going to be so much better.
[Boldface added above]
Don't forget to include those \$3-4K losses in your equation. If you haven't experienced them as a counter, you most certainly will, if I can use your expected, occasional \$3-4K wins as a gauge of your expected betting level. I don't want to put a damper on your enthusiasm, just want to temper it a bit with a dose of reality learned both from sims and real life experience.

Last edited by aslan; November 4th, 2011 at 05:07 PM.

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