Blackjack and Card Counting Forums - BlackjackInfo.com

  #21  
Old November 2nd, 2011, 10:35 PM
Brock Windsor Brock Windsor is offline
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Originally Posted by kewljason View Post
I think you guys are taking things too personal. He didn't say that card counters and AP were cheaters. He specifically said that the law distinguishes that they are not. He was simple stating, that from the casinos point of view, both activities one legal, the other not legal, will have the same outcome, to harm the bottom line and as such both are viewed as unfavorable and undesirable by the casino. Nothing new here. Not sure what you all are getting so worked up about?
That's how I interpreted it.
  #22  
Old November 2nd, 2011, 10:42 PM
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aslan aslan is offline
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Originally Posted by blackjack avenger View Post

Ever see casino staff let a drumk play on?

T
Ha! Even more likely, I'll bet you've never seen a casino let one of their employees drink on the job, but they do provide free drinks for "guests."
  #23  
Old November 3rd, 2011, 12:23 AM
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blackjack avenger blackjack avenger is offline
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Default guess we should all agree

Let casinos portray us in the same light as CRIMINALS! Because this serves the AP community and the individuals in the community

Ummm what was the lawsuit against Griffin detective agency about? Oh yeah, calling APs cheats! Thank goodness courts note the distinction in spite of casino ilk!

A bank robber and someone making a withdrawl "often" share the same characteristics of withdrawing money from the bank! Little distinction: they both wear shoes, approach the teller, etc.

Isn't there a push now to make counting illegal in Ohio? Subtle distinction of words and beliefs matter.

Last edited by blackjack avenger; November 3rd, 2011 at 12:31 AM.
  #24  
Old November 3rd, 2011, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by blackjack avenger View Post
Isn't there a push now to make counting illegal in Ohio? Subtle distinction of words and beliefs matter.
I haven't followed what's going on in Ohio. Is there a link to this information? I find it hard to believe Ohio is going to make thinking illegal? No state has said that card counting is illegal. What is debated is how they allow casinos to protect themselves. If casinos feel they can't protect themselves, they will simply refuse to offer a decent game as most of AC does.

Once the casino decides they don't want a players action, it makes little difference to a card counter whether they can bar players or not. Whether they bar the player or shuffle at will, he is out of action. But prior to that decision, allowing casinos to bar players the way Nevada and most of the rest of the country does is far superior for the player. When casinos feel they can protect themselves they are more likely to offer better conditions and deal with the problem on an individual level. This allows the player to probe and figure out just what the tolerance level is for each location.

Having spent 5 years with AC as my home base and now 2+ with Las Vegas, it is pretty clear to me that the way Vegas and most of the rest of the country does it, allowing casinos to ban and bar players is far more advantageous for the player. Kenny did no one a favor by forcing Jersey's hand.

  #25  
Old November 3rd, 2011, 05:26 AM
David Spence David Spence is offline
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Forte's statement does imply that the distinction between an AP and a cheater can be arbitrary, and Munchkin's examples certainly further this point. I think it's hard to draw good analogies between different forms of casino play and, say, rape or torture. If the laws were to change suddenly, even someone prone to confusing morality with legality would still be unlikely to consider rape or torture moral. We shouldn't take what we do too seriously.

I think part of the reason most APs are so careful not to cheat is simply a love of and respect for games: present me with the rules, and I'll figure out how to be the best player within those rules. When I decided to become a good backgammon player, for example, I chose to study books, join a backgammon club, have my dad teach me, etc., instead of the possibly shorter path of learning some method of cheating.

By the same token, our hatred of casinos at least partially stems from their lack of respect for the rules. When they can't win within the rules, which are even stacked in their favor against the vast majority of opponents, the casinos don't hesitate to break the rules with false accusations, false imprisonment, assault, etc. The casinos' most common response to losing--"If I can't win, I'm taking my football and going home!"--though within the rules, certainly doesn't show respect for the game.

Last edited by David Spence; November 3rd, 2011 at 05:33 AM.
  #26  
Old November 3rd, 2011, 05:52 AM
tthree tthree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spence View Post
By "shottaking," I specifically mean things such as betting more than the game allows."
When I see people bet more than the table limit the usual outcome is take the bet if they lose and pay table max if they win. When I fuss about fairness they say the max is posted and it's the player's responsibility to bet within it. Not a very wise shot to take.
  #27  
Old November 3rd, 2011, 11:27 AM
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sagefr0g sagefr0g is offline
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Originally Posted by kewljason View Post
[SIZE="3"]I haven't followed what's going on in Ohio. Is there a link to this information? I find it hard to believe Ohio is going to make thinking illegal? No state has said that card counting is illegal. What is debated is how they allow casinos to protect themselves. If casinos feel they can't protect themselves, they will simply refuse to offer a decent game as most of AC does.

...
try this link:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...-stand-on.html
Quote:
A steely-eyed, number-crunching, card-playing pro strolls into the Hollywood Casino Columbus and takes a seat at a blackjack table.

Three hours later, he's accumulated stacks of chips by counting cards - a practice that could get him ejected from most Las Vegas casinos.

How would the Hollywood Casino Columbus respond?

That's where Spectrum Gaming comes in.

Officials from Spectrum, the Linwood, N.J., firm hired in part to help Ohio craft rules for its four future casinos, told the Ohio Casino Control Commission yesterday that card counting is one of many law-enforcement issues on which the commission will need help.

"Is card counting illegal in this state? It's one of our great debates we've had over the years," Fred Gushin, Spectrum's managing director, said to the commission.

Although there are no laws against simple card counting - calculating probabilities for upcoming cards based on the cards already dealt, and betting accordingly - anywhere in the United States, casinos in most states are permitted to remove players from the table who they suspect of counting cards.

But in New Jersey, the home of Spectrum and Atlantic City casinos, the Supreme Court ruled that casinos couldn't ban card counters from tables. Dealers are instead permitted to shuffle cards at any time, bar a player from buying into a game mid-shoe, or do other things to neutralize card counters.

Card counting is an old practice, sensationalized through books and movies (most recently, the 2008 movie 21 starring Kevin Spacey) about some Massachusetts Institute of Technology students who took casinos for millions of dollars by counting cards.

"Personally, I love the New Jersey decision, but I understand that most states view it differently," Gushin told The Dispatch. "It's an issue the Ohio commission will have to decide on. Most others have not decided the New Jersey way."

Jo Ann Davidson, chairwoman of the Ohio Casino Control Commission, said she hasn't formed an opinion on how card counters should be treated in Ohio casinos.

The Tropicana in Atlantic City lost $1.86 million at its blackjack tables overall in April and $6 million to one player - anomalies that led some gambling experts to suspect card counting.

Bob Tenenbaum, spokesman for Penn National Gaming, which will build and operate the Columbus casino, said his company would like to see the control commission outlaw card counting.

"Given that it's difficult to enforce a strict no-card-counting policy, we also believe the commission should give casinos the right to eject card counters," Tenenbaum said.

Spectrum, which is being paid up to $395 per hour through its contract with the state, budgeted 240 hours toward providing law-enforcement analysis - at a maximum cost of $94,800.

Spectrum submitted a proposal for multiple areas of study to the Casino Control Commission totaling a maximum of 980 hours - which could cost $387,100.

Though Spectrum and Moelis & Co. - the firm advising Gov. John Kasich on how to extract more money from casinos - are being paid out of the Ohio Lottery Commission's budget, Davidson said the Casino Control Commission will reimburse the Lottery Commission for Spectrum's services.

Other law-enforcement issues Davidson's commission will have to consider include staffing. The Casino Control Commission must pay for law enforcement at the casinos out of its budget (roughly $8million in 2012), and can either hire private gambling agents with police training or contract with law-enforcement agencies.

Also yesterday, Kasich spokesman Rob Nichols confirmed that any additional fees or tax revenue Kasich and Moelis can squeeze out of casino operators Penn National and Rock Ohio Caesars will go to the state's schools and to worker training.
........

Last edited by sagefr0g; November 3rd, 2011 at 11:29 AM.
  #28  
Old November 3rd, 2011, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by sagefr0g View Post
So, I'd like to know who won $6 million playing blackjack at the Tropicana and why they did not take measures to stop him. This sounds highly suspicious, maybe a fallacious story planted to influence the legislature to vote for making card-counting illegal. Unless,... Tarzan, was it you? bigplayer? Bojack? C'mon, guys, fess up!
  #29  
Old November 3rd, 2011, 12:35 PM
Brock Windsor Brock Windsor is offline
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Don Johnson. He outed himself and his exploits were widely discussed on this site and others. The theory behind the how is debate but most suspect a loss rebate play. You must've been hanging out in the zen zone when this was happening.
  #30  
Old November 3rd, 2011, 12:40 PM
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blackjack avenger blackjack avenger is offline
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Default wrong title for thread

"Often...the only distinction you will find is one of legality" Well, only "often" so not all the time. I guess the AP community can take comfort in that.

The title of thread should be
AP = criminal
 

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