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  #11  
Old November 6th, 2011, 10:07 AM
21gunsalute 21gunsalute is offline
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Originally Posted by ringlejames View Post
I beg to differ. My FIRST TRIP EVER, I being a rather good player from the get go, ratholed like a you know what, squirreled chips away in my pocket, didn't cash out, kept literally hoards of chips in my room. stacks and stacks of red and a modest stack of greens.Pit would not leave me alone. My id was expired, they refused to let me cash out, I kept playing though. when I did color up all I had, I got a 15 minute wait to color up. Went up to a window with my friend Cashed out and showed them my expired id, and had to wait another ten while they confirmed with the pit the color up and cash out. Pit bosses had their eyes on me like hawks as well.

Now I just color up get with their system, cash out everything during the session and play by their system. Much smoother now a days.
1) Don't overdo the ratholing bit.
2) Don't rathole red. Little if any benefit to ratholing red and it takes up too much pocket space.
3) Don't cash out large amounts all at once. Don't color up large amounts all at once.
4) Keep your ID up to date. Allowing it to expire can cause a multitude of problems in and away from the casino.
5) Use your brain.
  #12  
Old November 6th, 2011, 10:09 AM
moo321 moo321 is offline
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Take the chips you ratholed to the cage. Bring back the chips they recorded for your next session.
  #13  
Old November 6th, 2011, 11:12 AM
stevo123 stevo123 is offline
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Hey I'm new to counting so sorry if my question sucks hah. But wouldn't ratholing be easily spotted by the eye in the sky if they were watching you? Suppose the casino was monitoring you and keeping track of your play. They would be able to see how much you bought in for. And then they would see how much you bet each hand and if you won or lost. So wouldn't they be able to know exactly how much money should be in your chip stack at any moment? Then it would be obvious you were ratholing if what you should have didn't match up with what you did have. And if they noticed this wouldn't it make it obvious that you are counting cards?
  #14  
Old November 6th, 2011, 05:46 PM
moo321 moo321 is offline
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Originally Posted by stevo123 View Post
Hey I'm new to counting so sorry if my question sucks hah. But wouldn't ratholing be easily spotted by the eye in the sky if they were watching you? Suppose the casino was monitoring you and keeping track of your play. They would be able to see how much you bought in for. And then they would see how much you bet each hand and if you won or lost. So wouldn't they be able to know exactly how much money should be in your chip stack at any moment? Then it would be obvious you were ratholing if what you should have didn't match up with what you did have. And if they noticed this wouldn't it make it obvious that you are counting cards?
There are a few ways of ratholing. One is by palming the chips: this can't be seen by the regular cameras.

Also, they probably don't give a crap. Surveillance is there to prevent theft and cheating in that order. Proper accounting will be far lower on their priorities.
  #15  
Old November 6th, 2011, 06:51 PM
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FLASH1296 FLASH1296 is offline
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"One is by palming the chips: this can't be seen by the regular cameras."

I beg to differ ! Security cameras can read the serial numbers off of a banknote, dates off of a coin.

Last edited by FLASH1296; November 6th, 2011 at 06:54 PM.
  #16  
Old November 6th, 2011, 08:27 PM
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To newbies: There are ways to rathole that are not detectable by cameras. The main thing to remember is that your purpose is to get recorded at a loss or at least a lessor amount than you actually won. It is not good on a public Forum to spell out all the ways that ratholing can be achieved-- make the surveillance teams earn their keep. Use you imagination and you will find ways, maybe even new ways no one has ever thought of before, but keep them to yourself and your trusted friends.

Part of the purpose of the Forum is to help APs improve their skills, but an unintentional and unwanted byproduct of this is to provide a training tool for casino-employed surveillance people. The last thing we should want to do is to help these students of AP techniques on the other side the fence to hone their detective skills. It is my hope that they will always be at a serious disadvantage, and always a safe distance behind the player practitioners.

So don't be discouraged if the answers you sometimes get on the Forum are less than satisfying. This goes for books on counting and other AP techniques, as well; savvy authors do not tell the entire story, nor should they. As you are vetted by Forum members over time, you will find more and more of the answers you are looking for. And some of the information you seek may only be obtainable face to face, or you will have to figure it out for yourself. That's just the way it is.

Last edited by aslan; November 6th, 2011 at 08:29 PM.
  #17  
Old November 6th, 2011, 09:35 PM
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psyduck psyduck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aslan View Post
To newbies: There are ways to rathole that are not detectable by cameras. The main thing to remember is that your purpose is to get recorded at a loss or at least a lessor amount than you actually won. It is not good on a public Forum to spell out all the ways that ratholing can be achieved-- make the surveillance teams earn their keep. Use you imagination and you will find ways, maybe even new ways no one has ever thought of before, but keep them to yourself and your trusted friends.

Part of the purpose of the Forum is to help APs improve their skills, but an unintentional and unwanted byproduct of this is to provide a training tool for casino-employed surveillance people. The last thing we should want to do is to help these students of AP techniques on the other side the fence to hone their detective skills. It is my hope that they will always be at a serious disadvantage, and always a safe distance behind the player practitioners.

So don't be discouraged if the answers you sometimes get on the Forum are less than satisfying. This goes for books on counting and other AP techniques, as well; savvy authors do not tell the entire story, nor should they. As you are vetted by Forum members over time, you will find more and more of the answers you are looking for. And some of the information you seek may only be obtainable face to face, or you will have to figure it out for yourself. That's just the way it is.
Well said.

The winning elements are scattered out there on this board. However, knowing these elements may not be enough to beat your game based on my own experience. One needs to evaluate his own situation such as the specific game you play and your risk tolerance and then come up with a strategy specific for your game. After you play more, think back and see if the outcome could have been better if you would have played differently. Keep the winning elements in mind and keep modifying your strategy. Get a simulator and study the game you play from every angle you can think of. You know your most recent modification is good once you start to experience more steady wins.

Last edited by psyduck; November 6th, 2011 at 09:46 PM.
  #18  
Old November 7th, 2011, 02:34 AM
PonyPrincess PonyPrincess is offline
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always rathole, always buyin for cash, always show a loss
  #19  
Old November 7th, 2011, 09:30 AM
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peaegg peaegg is offline
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Originally Posted by PonyPrincess View Post
always rathole, always buyin for cash, always show a loss
You can't rathole if you play heads up. PC would know the exact count of greens and up.

I don't see while one has to buy in for cash.

If you always show a loss, you probably are losing more often than you should.
  #20  
Old November 7th, 2011, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by peaegg View Post
You can't rathole if you play heads up. PC would know the exact count of greens and up.

I don't see while one has to buy in for cash.

If you always show a loss, you probably are losing more often than you should.
It is more difficult to rat-hole playing head up or with one other person, but I have done so. The shorter the time, however, the more I must agree with you that it is pretty hard to fool the PC, especially if he knows the green and black count in the tray before you begin.

I don't understand the buy-in for cash either; they always check how much I am bringing to the table when I begin.

If you always show a loss you will be lost in a sea of other players who always lose or almost always lose. Maybe you will not be able to rat-hole enough to always look like a loser, but that is my goal. In truth, I have never come close to always looking like a loser because it is most difficult to hide winnings when they come at the end of a shoe just before you color up.

What sticks out, if they have a record on you, either rated or by alias, is if you always or most always win, even if it is not a lot. No one consistently wins without engaging in something that goes beyond basic strategy. I don't know whether they do it or not (I certainly would), but all they have to do is take their database of customers and sort them by net win/loss. Those who pop up as net winners with a long record of visits deserve special scrutiny. If you play rated, or if you play a store so often they can keep track of you by an alias, I would take special care to rat-hole as much as possible without raising suspicion (rat-holing itself may be a cause of extra scrutiny if it looks like you are hiding something), and I would also keep in mind that if you have an atypical win record, they might give you a special look each time you arrive for a visit, provided of course that you play at a level that represents a risk to the casino. I think most Christmas chippers (red and green) find it pretty easy to stay under the radar, at least at the larger casinos, but at the black level and above, I would take nothing for granted. That's just me. You may differ.
 

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