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  #21  
Old November 23rd, 2011, 07:05 AM
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Very good advice Tulip!

Wouldn't mind bombing a table with ya sometime.
  #22  
Old November 23rd, 2011, 09:40 AM
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Default a fair statement

Other techniques can bring heavier reaction from a casino. Greed probably being a major factor on the reaction or getting discovered.
  #23  
Old November 23rd, 2011, 03:41 PM
bronco60 bronco60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonesome Gambler View Post
Interesting post. There are a lot of points made that should be taken into consideration by anyone interested in branching out into more advanced strategies. Here's something I would add:

When attempting to play games requiring advanced strategies, you must consider the consequences of the casino making the play. For card counters, the fallout from a backoff may simply consist of the inability to play on a particular shift for the next few weeks. As a result, many players moving over to advanced plays from basic card counting may not fully appreciate the consequences of their actions.

Many advanced strategies are not necessarily advanced in a technical capacity; they're fairly simple to understand and implement on a fundamental level. However, there are many nuances of advanced plays that will not become apparent to new players until much later in their careers, which can cause problems when a new player attempts to put their newfound knowledge to good use while ignoring (or at least not understanding) the big picture.

With many advanced strategies, if a play is made, a backoff isn't all you have to worry about. Here are some very likely scenarios:

- A brand new OSN/databse entry
- A formal 86'ing (casinos don't have a sense of humor about some advanced plays)
- Transferring heat to associates
- Games or even entire venues being fixed
- People losing their jobs

For casual or even serious recreational players, a backoff may be little more than a fun story to share with other APs later down the road, but the implications of strong games being burned out by well-meaning but inexperienced players run a lot deeper for those who count on game preservation for their livelihood.

Making advanced plays isn't just about memorizing charts and finding good game conditions it's also about understanding how the system works and knowing how to play the games and still live another day without having your name and face on all the latest flyers and mug book entries. While new players would do well to consider advanced plays in order to expand their repertoire and subsequently become better APs, they should make sure they fully understand the consequences of their actions before they jump into anything.
Your consequences list left out:

--Casino Employee commmitting suicide (yes, it happened)

Many of the problems, particularly idiotic things like hitting hard 17, can be solved by the simple rule: don't be greedy.

Unfortunately, there are many idiot wannabe lol "APs".
  #24  
Old November 23rd, 2011, 03:46 PM
bronco60 bronco60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeping panther View Post
MJ, yes I have to agree with you, but for us with jobs, who work for a living 9-5 and play serious or rec. on the side, should always be attentive to the desires of those that have chosen to not have a 9-5 job, and play casino games full time, we should step aside for them, consider their needs not ours, defer to them, they are special..............................NOT

(Ya real special, like strong arming a none Pro AP in LV into giving up money he had won because the Pro was doing this for a living and the other AP was not, gotta love those Pro's)



CP
What? It's hard to imagine somebody handing over a win on those grounds. What are the details?
  #25  
Old November 24th, 2011, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey View Post
Playing with your head right down on the table? (Like I do.) It's true that will sometimes cause a particular game (or rather, one particular dealer on that shift) to get shut down but if that is the only way for me to exploit it, so what?
Automatic Monkey, I certainly don't mean to offend you in anyway, but that is just pathetic. Please stop doing this immediately.

Let me dispel the myth that you have to sit low, sit far back, or be short to implement this strategy. You absolutely do not. If the game is good, you will see what you need to see while sitting like a normal patron.

Spaw
  #26  
Old November 24th, 2011, 07:58 AM
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Seriously people, if you're going to play these games, please play them exactly as described by Tulip. The worst thing is that the people who are going to ruin these games are probably going to be doing so playing for nickels. They will prevent the action of those who would have been able to hit the game for black action multiple times.

One thing tulip forgets to mention has to do with the relief shift.

Do not leave the table immediately as soon as relief arrives. If your BP (assuming you're bright enough to actually be using one!) is playing 2x100, his loss in EV per round played is only $1 (You should be able to figure out which game I'm talking about here based on the loss in EV). I'm not saying to not go take a bathroom break eventually during relief, but come on--don't be terribly obvious. You can also drop your BP's bets down during relief shift, too, but maybe only drop it as low as 1/4 of your BP's normal wager.

Also, I cringe every time I see a BP and his spotter leave the table simultaneously right as relief arrives. They pretend to not know each other at the table, but they will leave the table simultaneously as soon as relief hits and magically reappear as soon as the primary returns.

Again, at least these sorts are bright enough to use a BP.

And, finally a reiteration of one of Tulip's points regarding socialization in the casino. Please stop this! I cringe when I see a BP and a spotter who pretend to not know one another at the table only to find them socializing in the casino later, albeit sometimes on a different day.

On the way to the casino, if you and your BP ride together, drop one person off on the street. When leaving, pick your partner up off the street. Do not ride together if you pretend to not know each other in the casino!

Spaw
  #27  
Old November 24th, 2011, 08:18 AM
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Appreciate the tips and everyone's point of view. They should greatly reduce the amount of rookie mistakes I will make along the road.

SB
  #28  
Old November 24th, 2011, 08:46 AM
21forme 21forme is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
If the game is good, you will see what you need to see while sitting like a normal patron.
So will the dealer at the next table and anyone else walking by.
  #29  
Old November 24th, 2011, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
So will the dealer at the next table and anyone else walking by.
Incredibly; this is very seldom true! I've even seen pit bosses walk out of the pit and stand in front of the table, looking for this very thing. And STILL couldn't see it! Go figure!
  #30  
Old November 24th, 2011, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
So will the dealer at the next table and anyone else walking by.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sucker View Post
Incredibly; this is very seldom true! I've even seen pit bosses walk out of the pit and stand in front of the table, looking for this very thing. And STILL couldn't see it! Go figure!
I agree with sucker. Distinguish between them being able to see and actually seeing it. They could, but they probably won't.

I'm not saying you're going to be able to get a perfect read while sitting like a patron, but in a good game, you'll probably get A/2-3/4-10/Paint, which carries a huge edge in the game I was referring to earlier.

So, do like your mother said and sit with good posture!

Spaw

Last edited by Southpaw; November 24th, 2011 at 10:17 AM.
 

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